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Thread: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

  1. #511
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    Default Re: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by exzel View Post
    Who is going to pay for all these guns, training, and additional manpower?
    I'd venture a safe guess that if a teacher would volunteer to do this, they already have a gun. And does my daughter really need 3 math teachers in her classroom because we can’t group kids by ability as to not stigmatize them?

    How much should the salaries of teachers and administrators go up if they must also be trained security guards?
    Do you mean reserve police officers? Perhaps we make it easier to get rid of bad teachers, eliminate out of control benefits, and shift some of that money around.

    Who pays if a firefight or mistake ends up in dead people as a result of such individuals?
    Who pays now if it happens with a police officer.

    Will every building (not just schools) require them?
    No, make it voluntary.

    What about escalation? Will these people be armed with fully automatic weapons? What if the criminals and crazies come with them?
    No, they serve as deterrents… speed bumps for the killers until the police with fully automatic weapons eventually do show up.

    What jurisdiction will these people be under?
    Local perhaps. Isn’t that what reserve police officers are now.

    What kind of background checks, criminal record checks, tracking, and extra registration will their guns require?
    Good ones!

    What kind of legal regress will people have against them for other things?
    What other things?

    Who will pay for their insurance, medical bills, etc. if they are injured in any way during these duties?
    Who pays for the police today?

    If we don't do every building, how ethical is it to steer the crazies to softer targets?
    I’m talking about protecting our kids. That is my primary focus.

    Now I’ll ask you just one. If your local school district wants something like this, and supported by the majority of people, and it’s shot down in courts by a few fervent individuals such as yourself, what do you tell the mother of a grieving child if they are no longer with us because of your actions? Too bad, so sad?
    Out of control benefits for teachers? Police with fully automatic weapons inside a school? Mother of a grieving child?

    There's no way you're arguing in good faith. Ignored.

  2. #512
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    Default Re: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Moderator View Post
    I'm out. As I said in one of the other threads, I am at the point of recognizing that I am not conceding that I do not have valid arguments but am at the point of realizing they will be an exercise in futility.
    Okay that’s your prerogative. Your present points you consider valid, and I present mine. It’s a pretty safe bet you and I will never see eye to eye, but maybe... just maybe, we are providing some valuable information and ideas for those who are on the fence in the issue, and are interested in hearing both sides of the discussion. Perhaps we are participating in the dialogue Steve is looking for? Or should we just pick up our ball and go home when we become frustrated with one another?

  3. #513
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    Default Re: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by exzel View Post
    Okay that’s your prerogative. Your present points you consider valid, and I present mine. It’s a pretty safe bet you and I will never see eye to eye, but maybe... just maybe, we are providing some valuable information and ideas for those who are on the fence in the issue, and are interested in hearing both sides of the discussion. Perhaps we are participating in the dialogue Steve is looking for? Or should we just pick up our ball and go home when we become frustrated with one another?
    I'm done playing ball with you. There's really no point to continuing is there? You haven't given me anything that has changed my mind. On the contrary, it has made me believe even more that those who are fighting for limitations on guns and increased regulation are on the right path.


  4. #514
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    Default Re: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by exzel View Post
    [COLOR="#FF0000"]
    Now I’ll ask you just one. If your local school district wants something like this, and supported by the majority of people, and it’s shot down in courts by a few fervent individuals such as yourself, what do you tell the mother of a grieving child if they are no longer with us because of your actions? Too bad, so sad?
    Like Ms. Mod I'm largely out of this conversation because I think your answers demonstrate that you are what I would call "crazy." That being said I will take the time to answer you last question and make some observations. I'm not "fervent" as you describe. I'm a Texan. I grew up around guns, know how to shoot guns, and have at times (perhaps even this one) owned them. You can get guns in my State as easily as a trip to the store. You can get literally ANY kind of guy you want (legal or not). Their abundance and easy access has never made me feel any safer nor has it had any effect that we have been able to track on our crime. You "assume" I'm some kind of "fervent" individual simply because I disagree with you. That is not a logical assumption.

    You clearly did not follow out your answers above to their logical conclusions because you haven't truly answered them in a meaningful way. They are pie in the sky kinds of answers which don't actually PAY for anything. To answer your one question, the Courts exist because we are a nation of laws. If the majority of people want something it will come to be reflected in the laws. That is how our system works. I don't advocate overthrowing the government simply because it doesn't agree with me. I'm a proud American and I support our Courts (even when I don't agree with their calls). This is because I believe in our system. Patriotism doesn't have a "fair weather" factor. Currently the parents mourning their children have all been saying they want the guns off the streets. There are plenty of interviews with them. Should you be asking YOURSELF your own question?

  5. #515
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    Default Re: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Gray View Post
    Like Ms. Mod I'm largely out of this conversation because I think your answers demonstrate that you are what I would call "crazy." That being said I will take the time to answer you last question and make some observations. I'm not "fervent" as you describe. I'm a Texan. I grew up around guns, know how to shoot guns, and have at times (perhaps even this one) owned them. You can get guns in my State as easily as a trip to the store. You can get literally ANY kind of guy you want (legal or not). Their abundance and easy access has never made me feel any safer nor has it had any effect that we have been able to track on our crime. You "assume" I'm some kind of "fervent" individual simply because I disagree with you. That is not a logical assumption.

    You clearly did not follow out your answers above to their logical conclusions because you haven't truly answered them in a meaningful way. They are pie in the sky kinds of answers which don't actually PAY for anything. To answer your one question, the Courts exist because we are a nation of laws. If the majority of people want something it will come to be reflected in the laws. That is how our system works. I don't advocate overthrowing the government simply because it doesn't agree with me. I'm a proud American and I support our Courts (even when I don't agree with their calls). This is because I believe in our system. Patriotism doesn't have a "fair weather" factor. Currently the parents mourning their children have all been saying they want the guns off the streets. There are plenty of interviews with them. Should you be asking YOURSELF your own question?
    I don’t have all the answers. I’m not “crazy” enough to believe I would. I threw some points to demonstrate we could find ways of addressing those questions.

    And I take it you assume I am not a parent who had a child involved at a school in which a sick individual showed up with a gun… which turned into a standoff with police. If that is the case, you would assume incorrectly.

  6. #516
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    Default Re: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Sepia and Dust View Post
    Speak for your damn self.
    Agreed.

  7. #517
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    Default Re: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Shasta View Post
    Agreed.
    The question was posed: "Maybe this is a stupid question coming from a Canadian but why do the American people think they have a right to bear arms? How did that come up anyway?"
    Did I did not provide historical accuracy in my response to the question?

  8. #518
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    Default Re: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

    There goes that bus again.................you know the one, the one with the wheels that go 'round and 'round. No one will ever convince me that it is a smart and good thing to have an assault weapon readily available for whatever reason you might try to come up with. Or have our kids be educated in what is basically a prison with armed guards stationed at every door. If I am in a situation where, let's say, an army of zombies (or aliens or even our own freakin' army) is coming at me for whatever reason (oh, maybe they're gonna take my Stephen King book collection!!!! *gasp*), I'm not gonna say to myself 'Gosh, wish I hadn't of supported that law banning assault weapons 'cause I sure could use one right about now!' No, if I die in a situation where I could have maybe, perhaps, likely survived if I had a nice, pretty, shiny, loud assault weapon, I will die happy knowing that I did what I could, by supporting said law, to save some innocent child from being slaughtered from some nutbag who has to have a nice, big, shiny assault weapon to prove he has a penis. If I can save just one child by supporting an assault weapon ban, then by God it's worth it! No child's death is worth the price of you having your nice, big, loud, shiny assault weapons. NONE!

    As for the question of who's going to pay for all of these armed teachers/training etc. the answer is all of us because our taxes are going to become astronomical in order to cover the outlandish costs. Just so a few of our wonderful members of our society can have their nice, big, shiny, loud assault weapons? It ain't gonna happen, Jack!

  9. #519
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    Default Re: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Sepia and Dust View Post
    Speak for your damn self.
    Thanks S&D, I was going to say the same thing. THIS is exactly what you and I were debating in another thread when I said there are no "rights" as the zealot types define them.

    This is why you can't have a reasonable, intelligent discussion with someone who is starting from this point.

    But to Staropeace... We have the gun privileges in the US because a debate was held and the society decided that was necessary. The reasons are many and include: self defense, hunting, game/sport and citizen militia to defend against invasions by foreign govts (which was a HUGE concern in the infant US, though most would have you believe it was to defend against the very people creating the law in the first place.... yeah, it's a head-scratcher). There are probably good reasons I left out of that list, but those are pretty much the "greatest hits". Again, these were derived via legal debate and reasonable discussion and afforded by the society. Not a written edict from God.

  10. #520
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    Default Re: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by exzel View Post
    The question was posed: "Maybe this is a stupid question coming from a Canadian but why do the American people think they have a right to bear arms? How did that come up anyway?"
    Did I did not provide historical accuracy in my response to the question?
    Nope. No historical inaccuracy. But my answer to the question would have been:

    Because, even though this country was based on religious freedoms, for some reason we somehow still became a country of "god" and, while a lot of the rules made sense then, most people get all kinds of crazy if you try to discuss updating the consitution or bill of rights to reflect society today.

    Even the bible had a new testament.

    So, just because it's historically accurate your answer is still very much based on your oppinion, as is mine.

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