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Thread: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

  1. #591
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    Default Re: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by hossenpepper View Post
    This sort of falls under "well regulated", wouldn't you agree?

    And to that, while withholding comment on its validity, so would a ban of certain types of guns currently legal. A debate about whether or not that would work, etc. is one thing. The dumbstruck disbelief of some that this/these ban(s) fall(s) far outside the definition of the 2nd Amendment and is evidence of some socialistic government cabal, just makes no sense to me as an argument or as a logical conclusion. It clearly falls under the term "well regulated".

    Besides, I don't think bears are happy about us thinking we can just take their arms. They need their claws to defend their young from possum attacks!!
    Meh, I don't have much time for those people who fingerpoint and scream "Socialist!" when they don't like a government program. All governments are socialistic--that's the damn point of government. The courts have ruled on what "well regulated" means, so that is what the term means. And yes, I happen to agree with the way they've defined it--some people should have zero ability to get within ten feet of a gun, and some guns shouldn't be sold at all.

    For instance, I strongly believe that Ms. Mod should be well-regulated and be unable to purchase a nuclear warhead, even at a convention. After all the back-and-forth we've gone through in this thread, I'd be in fear for my life if she ever became a nuclear power, so I'm content to keep that regulation firmly in place.

    But I'm going to keep my shotgun locked up in the closet with the shells inside a lockbox that's also inside that locked closet (like those Russian dolls you sometimes see)... just in case a more realistic danger presents itself.

  2. #592
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    Default Re: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Moderator View Post
    Canada may be more like us other than in terms of population. Do you have a problem with them?
    They're not a good analogue to the US, any more than Denmark, England, or Australia are. I mean, we have ten times Canada's population and density.

    We have far too many different kinds of people spread across far too much land for any kind of comparison to be made. What works for those countries won't work for the US.

  3. #593
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    Default Re: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Sepia and Dust View Post
    For instance, I strongly believe that Ms. Mod should be well-regulated and be unable to purchase a nuclear warhead, even at a convention. After all the back-and-forth we've gone through in this thread, I'd be in fear for my life if she ever became a nuclear power, so I'm content to keep that regulation firmly in place.
    There are not that many things I will go ballistic about, but clearly this topic is one of them. I'm sure my partner has your sympathies, too.


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    Default Re: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Sepia and Dust View Post
    They're not a good analogue to the US, anymore than Denmark, England, or Australia are. I mean, we have ten times Canada's population and density.

    We have far too many different kinds of people spread across far too much land for any kind of comparison to be made. What works for those countries won't work for the US.
    I still think that's B.S. and an excuse to just keep the status quo rather than attempting to make any meaningful changes. We're all still part of the same species at our core.


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    Default Re: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Moderator View Post
    I'm sure my partner has your sympathies, too.
    Ha!

  6. #596
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    Default Re: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Moderator View Post
    Yes, we should be very proud of our legislators for that. Yes, HUGE sarcasm. IMO they should have NEVER been available to the public in the first place.
    Well, instead of being butthurt about it LOL, maybe we can use it as an opportunity to turn down the heat and look for common ground?

  7. #597
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    Default Re: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by jimson View Post
    Well, instead of being butthurt about it LOL, maybe we can use it as an opportunity to turn down the heat and look for common ground?
    Telling me I'm butthurt did not help. It is flippant and dismissive of my feelings on the subject. I feel very passionately about this and do not think that this round of doing nothing about controlling arms should be the end of it. Yes, there are other measures that could and should be done in the meantime but it should not be off the table for me and never will be.


  8. #598
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    Default Re: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Moderator View Post
    I still think that's B.S. and an excuse to just keep the status quo rather than attempting to make any meaningful changes. We're all still part of the same species at our core.
    OK, let's look at it then. What's the tax-rate like in those countries? The taxes on commodities like gasoline? Do you think that Americans will elect leaders who promise that level of taxation?

    How about medical and psychological care "over there"? They actually try to treat their mentally ill, their addicts, their overstressed. We turn them out on the damn street. Can we fix them, or at least make sure that they take their meds and get help when they need it? Sure--but we won't pay for it.

    What if my boss doesn't like the New Orleans Saints sweatshirt I wear (He's a Chiefs man) and fires me on the spot, which he is legally entitled to do? Are there laws that protect me so that I can feed, house, and clothe my family like there are in those other countries we're talking about? Nope, not unless I'm in a protected class, and was fired for being a member of that class.


    For us to realize the success of those other countries regarding the number of mass-murders, we'd have to change everything about ourselves... and we'd still have school shootings and mass-murders. How do I know? Because those other countries with their low gun-violence rate still have them.

  9. #599
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    Default Re: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by jimson View Post
    Good question. I don't know. The NRA has always advocated tough on crime proposals even though criminals would likely be a good customer base. The NRA also did support the Staggers bill during the debate on the Brady Bill, requiring the BG system to be computerized and completed immediately at point of sale, that's basically what we have now.
    Well maybe just making a requirement before you can buy any gun. You need a license to fish BEFORE you go, so why not a gun purchase? Then the background checks issue might not be so hard to enforce on private sales, gun shows, etc. I still think a waiting period is necessary, as maybe a cool down is needed at times.

    Agreed. I think something must be done first before this is enacted, perhaps a data base where stolen firearms are entered by serial number that the general public can access to make sure they are buying a clean gun. This would be possibly made moot by or done in conjunction with universal background checks depending on how that might be implemented.
    Hmmm... isn't that what the ballistics DB is? Besides I think a lot of "illegal" or "stolen" saturday night special types have the serial numbers filed off. I could be wrong about that as I am not big in the firearms black market.

    I would think it would have to apply to gun safes that meet a certain rating.

    You could actually require it by adding an additional entry in section 11 of form 4473:

    "When not in immediate control by owner will this firearm be stored in a gun safe or other security container of XX rating or higher"

    The penalty for falsely checking yes would be perjury. Hard to enforce yes, but just having it on the books might be enough to dramatically increase secure storage by firearms owners.
    Yeah, like many laws, it's there to create a punishment, not to mitigate things. I don't see this issue as any different. therein lies the debate: Idea X or Law A will or will not actually mitigate anything. That is where this whole thing goes sour.

    Not sure what you mean here. A voluntary gun license and training with a tax credit incentive? If that's what you mean, I don't think it will hurt. I do like the carrot rather than stick approach.
    Yes, you got it. It would be a voluntary thing, like a passport. You have to pass a safety and handling course, and maybe a course on the laws, etc., and then once you do you get a tax credit for the cost, etc. Not conscripted though.

    There just doesn't seem to be any info on how this is proposed to be implemented. Without that, it's hard for me to say I would support it or not.

    This is the one thing where we have most disagreement. They are good for hunting and the self defense needs are different for a city apartment dweller and southern rural property owner who might have smuggling routes running through his land for example.
    I agree about that too. I don't mind regulation as long as it makes sense and actually works.

    My great granny once told me that the best way to look wrong is to do everything the way it actually should be done. Maybe this applies to my hunting and shooting experience. There is no way in hell I would have ever used one of these rapid fire rifles to hunt. First, once you do pull the trigger, they scatter so you aren't getting a bunch of shots. If you did land the flurry, unless it's a huge animal you will shred the poor thing. I learned this hunting quail WITHOUT birdshot. Too much firepower is too much. Same goes for self defense. I lived in rural Oklahoma, miles from help or neighbors, for most of my life. Never did I ever worry about a war scenario where I need to be able to rip off 100 bullets. The scenario you point out about drug runners has as simple answer: we don't allow vigilantes in our society. Your land or not, you can't police that scenario, nor should you. Then what? You got the godfather of the organization looking at YOU. Then, maybe you would need a bunch of assault rifles.


    Any ideas for further restrictions specifically on these, short of complete bans or ban on keeping them on your property?
    I don't really have the answers, but "just say no" on the right and "ban all guns" on the left isn't going to bring out any new ideas for sure. As SK points out, it is LONELY here in the middle.

  10. #600
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    Default Re: Gun control discussions in the wake of the Newtown, CT deaths

    Quote Originally Posted by Sepia and Dust View Post
    OK, let's look at it then. What's the tax-rate like in those countries? The taxes on commodities like gasoline? Do you think that Americans will elect leaders who promise that level of taxation?

    How about medical and psychological care "over there"? They actually try to treat their mentally ill, their addicts, their overstressed. We turn them out on the damn street. Can we fix them, or at least make sure that they take their meds and get help when they need it? Sure--but we won't pay for it.

    What if my boss doesn't like the New Orleans Saints sweatshirt I wear (He's a Chiefs man) and fires me on the spot, which he is legally entitled to do? Are there laws that protect me so that I can feed, house, and clothe my family like there are in those other countries we're talking about? Nope, not unless I'm in a protected class, and was fired for being a member of that class.


    For us to realize the success of those other countries regarding the number of mass-murders, we'd have to change everything about ourselves... and we'd still have school shootings and mass-murders. How do I know? Because those other countries with their low gun-violence rate still have them.
    This is a different subject. I was talking about their attitudes on guns in my previous post saying that even though there are bad people everywhere not everyone has the attitude/belief that they have to have a gun in order to live in safety.


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