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Thread: Sometimes 10 rounds isn't enough.

  1. #171
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    Default Re: Sometimes 10 rounds isn't enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sepia and Dust View Post
    Nobody does.

    Treat the unstable, lock away the evil, and prosecute the criminal, and guns won't be pointed at anybody.

    Absolutely ban every single gun in all of creation, and the unstable, the evil, and the criminal will still find a way to shoot people.
    Seize all firearms coming in to the U.S., make it illegal for them to be owned by private citizens, and there won't be guns used by the criminally insane or irresponsible parents who allow their unstable kids access to guns or gang members in drive-bys or citizens without a badge allowing them to carry a firearm.

  2. #172
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    Default Re: Sometimes 10 rounds isn't enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Sawyer View Post
    Seize all firearms coming in to the U.S., make it illegal for them to be owned by private citizens, and there won't be guns used by the criminally insane or irresponsible parents who allow their unstable kids access to guns or gang members in drive-bys or citizens without a badge allowing them to carry a firearm.
    You're just going to have to get used to the idea that that's never going to happen.

  3. #173
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    Default Re: Sometimes 10 rounds isn't enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sepia and Dust View Post
    You're just going to have to get used to the idea that that's never going to happen.
    Never. I don't believe that ferreting out the mentally unstable will stop shooting sprees any more than I think mentally unstable folks will get medical treatment that they need. It's a great idea to implement, I'm for it, but I don't think that's the only answer to lowering the number of awful gun tragedies in the U.S. Chuggs is right: there needs to be a more pro-active approach that gun owners take towards being responsible about guns, but in order for it to work, they have to all be on the bus with tickets. They have to be the ones who teach their kids and draw lines in the sand with their stoopid "yee-haw" neighbors (not my word; Mr. King's description) who want to shoot guns just to shoot them - never mind where the bullets fall...and I simply don't see that kind of grassroots movement happening among gun owners in the U.S. They're not putting pressure on their conservative reps (who *they* voted for!) to keep negotiations ongoing and productive regarding preventative measures against future Sandy Hooks and Virginia Techs.

  4. #174
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    Default Re: Sometimes 10 rounds isn't enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Sawyer View Post
    Never. I don't believe that ferreting out the mentally unstable will stop shooting sprees any more than I think mentally unstable folks will get medical treatment that they need. It's a great idea to implement, I'm for it, but I don't think that's the only answer to lowering the number of awful gun tragedies in the U.S. Chuggs is right: there needs to be a more pro-active approach that gun owners take towards being responsible about guns, but in order for it to work, they have to all be on the bus with tickets. They have to be the ones who teach their kids and draw lines in the sand with their stoopid "yee-haw" neighbors (not my word; Mr. King's description) who want to shoot guns just to shoot them - never mind where the bullets fall...and I simply don't see that kind of grassroots movement happening among gun owners in the U.S. They're not putting pressure on their conservative reps (who *they* voted for!) to keep negotiations ongoing and productive regarding preventative measures against future Sandy Hooks and Virginia Techs.
    Then you must not have been there when my daddy (a Reagan man!) taught me how to safely shoot, and you weren't there when I taught my niece and nephew. You weren't around when my twelve-year-old's uncle called off the day's bird hunt because the boy made a "shooting noise" while holding an unloaded shotgun, and you are evidently not aware of the hunter safety course that the boy was required to take before he was allowed to get a hunting license.

    The grassroots movement you want to see has been going on for at least a century--learn how to safely use a gun, and don't let bad people have one.

    Yes, there are chinks in the process, and those holes need to be filled in. Soon.

    But these screeds about seizing all the guns and repealing the second amendment and making it a felony to own an unlicensed firearm aren't doing anything to remedy the problems.

  5. #175
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    Default Re: Sometimes 10 rounds isn't enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sepia and Dust View Post
    The grassroots movement you want to see has been going on for at least a century--learn how to safely use a gun, and don't let bad people have one.
    Then why has that same grassroots movement not helped with gun tragedies? They're not being avoided; their occurrences just keep rising in numbers.

  6. #176
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    Default Re: Sometimes 10 rounds isn't enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Sawyer View Post
    Then why has that same grassroots movement not helped with gun tragedies? They're not being avoided; their occurrences just keep rising in numbers.
    The Sandy Hook shooter was insane. He got the guns from his insane mother. Neither of those people should have ever been able to possess a gun, and everybody--conservatives and liberals, alike--are trying to find a way to make sure that people like them can't get guns. The two parties may disagree on how to best implement such a process, but nobody wants crazy people to be armed.

  7. #177
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    Default Re: Sometimes 10 rounds isn't enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Sawyer View Post
    Seize all firearms coming in to the U.S., make it illegal for them to be owned by private citizens, and there won't be guns used by the criminally insane or irresponsible parents who allow their unstable kids access to guns or gang members in drive-bys or citizens without a badge allowing them to carry a firearm.
    Only after you send Stormtroopers door to door to confiscate the nearly 300 million already out there. How do you think that's going to go down in rural America? Do you really want a civil war? Don't expect factions of the military not to realign, once American citizens are being killed by their own government. Then both sides will have more than semi auto rifles to kill each other with.

  8. #178
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    Default Re: Sometimes 10 rounds isn't enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimson View Post
    Well really, who likes to be referred to with the term "butthurt"?
    Oh now, it's the vernacular of the day. It indicates two things: don't take these discussions too awfully seriously and also that I am hip and cool.

    It wasn't particularly clear to me that you were referring to the presence of guns as a deterrent to any attempt of a crime, but then again, there are studies that show that criminals do often fear armed citizens and that may impact their choice of victim, despite anecdotal evidence that you cite.
    Fair enough, but that is just as anecdotal because what they are studying in that context is an anecdote: "Do you fear someone may have a gun?". Sure, criminals do have some fear of the life they choose to pursue as it isn't exactly a safe and pleasant profession to be a criminal of any sort. But so does the average citizen who is aware of these matters (for whatever reason) know that it is best to assume someone may have a gun and not start a physical confrontation.

    Is there evidence that 36 out of 40 of the specific Oklahoma victims were gun owners or is this an extrapolation?
    Yes. This was from the interviews and investigation. This was specifically discussed because the local TV news made a big to do that maybe people should have guns to protect themselves, etc. The local newspaper however later showed that 36 of the 40 victims had guns somewhere in their house, etc. but due to the technique and timing the assailant used, they could, not get to them to be of any use. Which is a point I always make with the random attacker scenario need for guns. SK also pointed this out in the essay, citing "In Cold Blood" as a prime example. The archives of the story I presented are not online anywhere I could find as this was 30+ years ago.

    No, I'm not in disbelief that others might want guns restricted or outlawed, we already have restrictions and just because I don't believe in further bans on ownership by law abiding citizens, doesn't mean that I don't see possible merit in other proposals, like improvements in the NCIS, secure storage proposals, increased penalties for stolen gun trafficking, etc, but if people insist on labeling me as some no compromise extremist because I refuse to capitulate to any gun bans, then so be it.
    Here is the issue: your last statement. Speaking in absolutes. When you do that, be liberal or conservative... you instantly turn the debate off. I know that many Americans are raised to think this is a sign of strength and character to not waver. I can tell you from my life experience, the opposite is true. The ability to evolve and adapt is what indicates strength.

    If something needs to be banned to make a difference, then so be it. But we can't even begin to analyze if that would work because we have folks who are so rigid. It's as if they believe they have already thought of it in every single way and no human could possibly have an idea that shows why a ban, etc., is the best idea. I am not saying it is. I am saying it has to be debated.

    When you start from a position of "I will never back down and all your ideas are invalid" well... let's just say that isn't debate posture.

  9. #179
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    Default Re: Sometimes 10 rounds isn't enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by hossenpepper View Post
    Oh now, it's the vernacular of the day. It indicates two things: don't take these discussions too awfully seriously and also that I am hip and cool.



    Fair enough, but that is just as anecdotal because what they are studying in that context is an anecdote: "Do you fear someone may have a gun?". Sure, criminals do have some fear of the life they choose to pursue as it isn't exactly a safe and pleasant profession to be a criminal of any sort. But so does the average citizen who is aware of these matters (for whatever reason) know that it is best to assume someone may have a gun and not start a physical confrontation.



    Yes. This was from the interviews and investigation. This was specifically discussed because the local TV news made a big to do that maybe people should have guns to protect themselves, etc. The local newspaper however later showed that 36 of the 40 victims had guns somewhere in their house, etc. but due to the technique and timing the assailant used, they could, not get to them to be of any use. Which is a point I always make with the random attacker scenario need for guns. SK also pointed this out in the essay, citing "In Cold Blood" as a prime example. The archives of the story I presented are not online anywhere I could find as this was 30+ years ago.



    Here is the issue: your last statement. Speaking in absolutes. When you do that, be liberal or conservative... you instantly turn the debate off. I know that many Americans are raised to think this is a sign of strength and character to not waver. I can tell you from my life experience, the opposite is true. The ability to evolve and adapt is what indicates strength.

    If something needs to be banned to make a difference, then so be it. But we can't even begin to analyze if that would work because we have folks who are so rigid. It's as if they believe they have already thought of it in every single way and no human could possibly have an idea that shows why a ban, etc., is the best idea. I am not saying it is. I am saying it has to be debated.

    When you start from a position of "I will never back down and all your ideas are invalid" well... let's just say that isn't debate posture.
    It's been debated ad nauseum. I have stated many times what I support as far as efforts to reduce gun violence. The semi auto ban just isn't one of them.

  10. #180
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    Default Re: Sometimes 10 rounds isn't enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimson View Post
    Only after you send Stormtroopers door to door to confiscate the nearly 300 million already out there. How do you think that's going to go down in rural America? Do you really want a civil war? Don't expect factions of the military not to realign, once American citizens are being killed by their own government. Then both sides will have more than semi auto rifles to kill each other with.
    These hypothetical civil war screeds aren't doing any good, either.

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