I invite you to read my story, The Conversion. It is a tragic/comic story about a career criminal who meets an elderly woman, down on her luck. Their friendship leads to a life-altering change in the man's outlook, with a wicked twist at the end.
Writing Hobbyists
- Thread starter Donald Miller
- Start date
-
This message board permanently closed on June 30th, 2020 at 4PM EDT and is no longer accepting new members.
- Status
OK. I'll be honest and say I had to go off and think about this for a while.
1) "Who reads?"
A lot of people. Statistically, the number of readers per X of population is down on what it used to be. Yet that stat ignores the fact that there are very many more people in the world than there used to be, and a lot of them can speak English either as a mother tongue or as a second or foreign language (the world's population when I was born is estimated to have been around 3.2 billion, meaning it's more than doubled within my lifetime).
But, if no one read...then why write stories?
I write to be read. And yes, that means publication - though it has to be pointed out here that publication does not equal money, so the goal for a piece of writing can be publication without the writer producing it solely, or even mainly, for the cheque.
2) "What does a story do?"
That depends on the reader. Some readers take things away from stories that others don't. One thing a story should do is entertain, though it doesn't have to (and probably shouldn't) be the sole or primary function.
3) "Who gets to define talent?"
There is no definition, not in that sense. You either have some or you don't. That applies to anything that requires it, any craft or creative endeavour - writing, drawing, music, sculture, carpentry. Sports, too. Pick your favourite QB or pitcher. No one ever says anyone could be as good as them through sheer hard work, because we know it's not true (and again, the true greats seem to be from another planet). By the same token, we all know of someone or other who could have made it, but didn't because they didn't work hard enough at nurturing their talent, or making the sacrifices that could have seen them transcend, however slightly, the apparent limit of their talent.
As I said before, I have no talent with regard to carpentry. I tried, found the cupboard was bare, and that was that. I could have spent hours, weeks, months and years practicing in the hope of getting better, but I couldn't see the point. To use your example from before, my cabinets would only ever be basic boxes. Even I wouldn't want them if there were more attractive ones available - and there would be, of course.
I think that talent lies on a cline, though, from None to Insane, through Poor, Competent, Good, Very Good - and even there, you'll have a gradient of Very Poor to Fairly Poor, with the top and bottom ends overlapping with None and Competent. (What's the difference between Fairly Poor and Barely Competent? Maybe the extra sacrifice needed to transcend the talent limit...though if you're at the top of the Very Good range, even sacrificing your first born to Ctulhu will never make you Great.)
4) "What is a good story? What is a bad story?...Does only time define talent?"
See 2). A good story will entertain, regardless of any rough writing. A bad one won't, even if it has all the pearly prose under the sun.
And, no, I don't believe it does. Time allows us to see the true worth of a writer's output - SK, for example, was broadly dismissed as a hack until fairly recently; now he's being recognized as one of America's foremost writers (however begrudgingly by some), in part because of a generational shift in critical thinking and artistic evaluation. (And seriously, the man's work does speak for itself, though he'd be (and has been) the first to admit to writing some clunkers.)
5) "Is the best seller list the definition of talent?"
No. Luck. And good marketing campaigns. Good marketing most of all, actually.
...Oh BS Walt!!!!....you've been a complete and utter boor on numerous occasions and called out about it, I've have been censured and so have many others-Donald is no pariah...he said some things people didn't like-and was layed out for it....
I've had mixed experiences with writing groups, I must say. I found a good one online, though as the membership gradually changed so did the tone and type of critique. In the early days, it was 90% constructive with only one or two 'strident voices' that tried to prescribe stylistic changes, or tended to not only throw cold water over your hopes and dreams, but also sling the bucket.
But that experience, in hindsight, was useful, because not everyone will try to offer constructive criticism, not everyone will want to help you improve, learn or develop. It toughens the hide.
The best way to treat those people, though, is to have a look at their work, appraising it honestly and fairly. If, as you read, you think that their writing is a cut above, it'll obviously serve you well to consider why, and what you might take away from it. Conversely, if you see nothing of value - and I'm thinking here more of 'dull story' than anything - you'll know they're only doing you down because they can or because they're jealous, and they can be fairly safely ignored.
But to return quickly to SK's former students...perhaps none of them had much in the way of natural writing talent? Or, more likely, they opted not to nurture it. They could have been too busy with other things, or perhaps their talent in another area appeared (or was) stronger than in writing, so they chose to develop the greater talent at the expense of writing.
After all, didn't SK himself say something along the lines of talent being as common as table salt; it just depends on what you do with it. Hard work is a large part of that. The simple desire to start, and then continue, is another, and life often gets in the way.
I have a short story I've just written, in case anyone would like to read it. I'll be placing other stories and items of interest on my weblog. I hope this is a self promotion.
The Conversion
The Conversion
A tough hide is important. Just read the reviews of truly outstanding writers in the New York Times. I read one the other day about a Joyce Carol Oates novel. Yikes! But everyone gets criticized--anyone who is a professional. Someone needs to know that going in, unless they want to be a recluse like JD Salinger. Or someone like Woody Allen, who doesn't seem to care. I share emails with Noam Chomsky from time to time. He's an interesting and very likable man -- although some folks really hate his guts. Anyway, in one of our emails, he told me "I couldn't care less what other people say about me."
Mostly agree with what you said. But you must realize that being criticised for a reason isn't the same thing as being criticised because the person is being mean. Depends on the person. Most movie critics couldn't write a decent script to save their lives, but they are good at critiquing a movie. In fact Stephen King criticised Roger Ebert for being too easy on too many movies. So, it comes with the territory.
As a student writer, I think people need to view the comments others make as motivations for improvement. Of course, you'll always come across someone who just doesn't like you and does everything she can to discourage you. But whatcha gonna do. . . Such is life.
Mostly agree with what you said. But you must realize that being criticised for a reason isn't the same thing as being criticised because the person is being mean. Depends on the person. Most movie critics couldn't write a decent script to save their lives, but they are good at critiquing a movie. In fact Stephen King criticised Roger Ebert for being too easy on too many movies. So, it comes with the territory.
As a student writer, I think people need to view the comments others make as motivations for improvement. Of course, you'll always come across someone who just doesn't like you and does everything she can to discourage you. But whatcha gonna do. . . Such is life.
I don't understand the hostility generated against Donald for using the SKMB's self-promotion opportunities. If self-promotion is frowned on, then why offer that opportunity and then castigate the man for using that opportunity.
GNT, let the Mods do their jobs. None of us as members have the right to pull rank on each other. We are all equal. *LOVE*
Donald can self-promote till the cows come home. We just ask that it not overflow into every area of the board he posts in. Keep self-promotion in self-promotion.
I got an email notice from someone on here that reads "...and with arrogance like that, your class is sure to fill up *snap*, just like that...how pretentious of you to waltz in here and immediately begin to tout your "wisdom" while insulting the vast majority of the members. And to "talk down" to us?...how dare you???...treating Madam Mack and others with poorly concealed scorn, is the mark of a small mind and smaller heart...you haven't been here long enough to render an opinion on any of us, and even if you had-respectful disagreement or opinion is the hallmark of the SKMB...you sir, have worn out your welcome and need to find the exit forthwith....," while bryras said, GNT, let the Mods do their jobs. None of us as members have the right to pull rank on each other. We are all equal. *LOVE*"
I've made some fast friends here, Walter and Vulture (Becki). They more than make up for the people who, I take it from the aforementioned comment, don't like me.
If you don't like me and have nothing positive to say to me, why waste your time badgering me?
AND I never once claimed that I'm a teacher. On the contrary, I have repeatedly stated that I am a "student." I am, in fact, a student seeking other students to learn with. I didn't realize that this was the place I should place all of my material in. Now I know. Dana Jean said, "Donald can self-promote till the cows come home. We just ask that it not overflow into every area of the board he posts in. Keep self-promotion in self-promotion."
So, there you go. We can each find our own entry-points and exits.
THANK YOU BRYRAS: "We are all equal. *LOVE*'" YES. Love, "Reign O'er Me!"
I've made some fast friends here, Walter and Vulture (Becki). They more than make up for the people who, I take it from the aforementioned comment, don't like me.
If you don't like me and have nothing positive to say to me, why waste your time badgering me?
AND I never once claimed that I'm a teacher. On the contrary, I have repeatedly stated that I am a "student." I am, in fact, a student seeking other students to learn with. I didn't realize that this was the place I should place all of my material in. Now I know. Dana Jean said, "Donald can self-promote till the cows come home. We just ask that it not overflow into every area of the board he posts in. Keep self-promotion in self-promotion."
So, there you go. We can each find our own entry-points and exits.
THANK YOU BRYRAS: "We are all equal. *LOVE*'" YES. Love, "Reign O'er Me!"
Thank you, Walter. Yes, indeed. I have something I made that is free for anyone who wants to to use. I can't say I did it without any self-interest because I did have the self-interest of having fellow students to interact with.
I have, however, made websites that are free for anyone to use. Lots of them on various subjects. Each of us have different life-circumstances. And I made the free sites to contribute, to give back to others. Here's the link to the best site I made. I think, if I mentioned my name at all, it was only once. (I just checked the "About" page. I didn't mention my name at all.) It's received nearly 33,000 views. I haven't made a dime from it. But I feel good that I contributed something useful to other people.
The Divine Comedy | of Dante Alighieri
Guys...I am a surprised at the interactions here. I have joined Donald's group because I'd like to learn how to write, step by step. Usually we are so accepting of those who put a lot of time and effort into nurturing aspiring writers. Really am puzzled and I have seen one of my favorite Aussies leave because of a misunderstanding. Please everyone, 
Live, love, learn. I'm happy I met a couple of people to share the journey with me. Given my circumstances, (blues riff in the background), I am too depressed at the thought of going it alone. Having nice people like you as traveling companions makes for a nice adventure.
Well then wouldn't it be wise to tell the individual that from the git-go? And then not criticize the man...in a self-promotion thread...for self-promoting! I knew a man in Florida, the orphan Ramon Diaz, we'd sit in his garage converted to an apartment, table against the wall where the overhead door once moved, no windows, light on, cigarette smoke rising up through the shade, and Ray would tell me, Walter, you know why I say everything twice? He'd start to grin, pick up his cigarette and start to put it to his lips, smiling now, cause no one listens the first time! What we need is a designated welcomer in the self-promotion thread. I nominate you, Dana Jean, as your avatar would tell all they'd been heard and appreciated and perhaps they'd feel no need to say everything twice.
I didn't see a way to attach a document, in the "start a conversation" feature, so I just cut and pasted it. This is an older letter (time goes fast, and it just seems like last month that I sent it). I have started using e-mail to send queries, even though I have heard the old adage that it is harder to ignore an actual letter written on a piece of paper. I don't know how true that is in these days of paper shredders and smart phones with e-mail capability.
Each person's approach is unique, so my letter should only be used as a basic framework; a starting point toward writing your own letter, which should be tailored to your project and the person you are writing to. All it costs you is some time to formulate what you want to say.
As for The Black List and VPF, I checked them out and they are definitely pay to play, and thus are a bad idea. They just take advantage of writers. As for the reviews by supposedly happy and satisfied users, they all seem too glowing to not have been done by paid reviewers.
The fact that you received no credible responses through these sites (thank you for being honest about that) illustrates that they are a scam. It reminds me of the Clint Eastwood movie, where the elderly women were all writing letters to lonely American men, in the guise of being young foreign women in distress and in need of money. Perhaps a similar thing is being done by a second group of "producers" in the room next door to the main offices of these pay to play companies. Remember, just because you are paranoid does not mean that they are not out to get you, or your money.
At least with self-publishing, you are receiving a product in return. I believe it is overpriced, but I'm going to try to negotiate that down. You'll want to get a physical format for the book that is called "perfect binding", and I would demand a sample before committing to a large minimum order, with the option to inspect samples of the finished batch before making the final payment.
As always, make sure you copyright the completed work. Go directly to the U.S. government's site U.S.Copyright Office
Do not get fooled by the third party skimmers, like legal zoom or copyright associates, whom Google conveniently accepts money from to put at the top of their searches. Go right to Uncle Sam and take care of business there, rather than pay some scammer to simply redirect you to the true government site.
I think I will still continue to write in the screenplay format. If the novelized version does get attention, then I will have a script already finished and ready to hand to an agent.
As I said earlier, writing is also a business, and making a living at it is nothing to look down one's nose at. It is a trade, like carpentry, music, plumbing, electrical, auto mechanic work, etc., etc., and a writer should also receive compensation for their hard work, and feel really proud that their accomplishments are valued enough by their fellow human beings to merit said payment.
This is an age-old debate about not being "true to your art", etc., and I frankly have always thought it is all a bunch of pompous rubbish.
If something is not published, then how do you expect anyone else to enjoy it? We stand on each others porches and talk about things, or sit around the proverbial campfire and tell stories, to communicate with each other. Otherwise we would just all go off into the woods and individually mumble to ourselves in solitude, and all social progress would come to a halt.
To be honest, I did take offense to the implied suggestion that I, as someone who is trying very hard to be published and make an honest living as a writer, is somehow of a lower stature than those whose motives are “more pure”. In fact, I was really ticked off, but didn’t want to say it, so thank you for bringing it up, and allowing me to vent.
What you may not have realised (because you couldn't see) was that Dana Jean had been corresponding with the OP via the Conversations about this matter, but the new threads kept popping up... and so it was addressed elsewhere.
I think this has been resolved now, as seen in earlier posts.
I have had the moderator put the squelch on a post of mine, and it was politely explained to me that it belonged in the self-promotion area. It is like a filing system. Everything has a place, to avoid confusion and chaos.
And, darn. I have put a whole lot of effort into making sure my stuff is ready to be published, and I honestly think it is ready, but I hardly think that makes me an insufferable genius. I am not insufferable...
Don't take it personally. I obviously wasn't referring to you. I was referring to an attitude. Indeed, I'd be surprised if you hadn't encountered it yourself. But I suppose my resent indignation stems from trying to get a group of students together and discovering that only a few unfortunate folks like Walter and me need to study.I have had the moderator put the squelch on a post of mine, and it was politely explained to me that it belonged in the self-promotion area. It is like a filing system. Everything has a place, to avoid confusion and chaos.
And, darn. I have put a whole lot of effort into making sure my stuff is ready to be published, and I honestly think it is ready, but I hardly think that makes me an insufferable genius. I am not insufferable...
I wrote something earlier today that I got ready for publishing, and I published it a half hour ago.
- Status