Writing Hobbyists

[Donald Miller]

What you may not have realised (because you couldn't see) was that Dana Jean had been corresponding with the OP via the Conversations about this matter, but the new threads kept popping up... and so it was addressed elsewhere.

I think this has been resolved now, as seen in earlier posts.

Now, how can anyone not like a smiley logo with a halo? I can't resist.

 

[Donald Miller]

Well then wouldn't it be wise to tell the individual that from the git-go? And then not criticize the man...in a self-promotion thread...for self-promoting! I knew a man in Florida, the orphan Ramon Diaz, we'd sit in his garage converted to an apartment, table against the wall where the overhead door once moved, no windows, light on, cigarette smoke rising up through the shade, and Ray would tell me, Walter, you know why I say everything twice? He'd start to grin, pick up his cigarette and start to put it to his lips, smiling now, cause no one listens the first time! What we need is a designated welcomer in the self-promotion thread. I nominate you, Dana Jean, as your avatar would tell all they'd been heard and appreciated and perhaps they'd feel no need to say everything twice.

Walter, you have a way with words. I'll bet that you are a natural born writer. You're one of these fellows who can tell a good story around the campfire out on the trail. You might even have a streak of Mark Twain in you.

 

[Donald Miller]

This is a short story that follows the structure of Maupassant's story, The Necklace. It is -- several people will no doubt be glad to know -- my final cathartic piece of writing about those obsessed with getting published-- and I mean the people who have not enough talent to merit publishing. Those who do are, of course, excluded.

Right now, I'm patting myself on the back over this one. I wonder if that will be the case a week from now.

The Manuscript | Creative Writing Study Group

 

[Walter Oobleck]

Walter, you have a way with words. I'll bet that you are a natural born writer. You're one of these fellows who can tell a good story around the campfire out on the trail. You might even have a streak of Mark Twain in you.

Naw...just found out I'm a samurai. Midnight tonight, right? Was looking at the time thing, midnight Sunday...and was worried, thinking, is that like one minute after 11:59 p.m. Saturday. Haven't visited the site as yet to see if I'm tardy...and I won't be awake near midnight...so I could post it in the chat and you could put it where it needs to go? And then delete the chat? Knew a guy, too...navy this was...said everything twice. He was from New York, New York.

 

[Garriga]

A person can learn to sing, dance, cook, and write. I thin

I think you can always tell the difference between someone who has the mechanics of writing a book down pat but is still missing that certain something that separates them from the writers who truly suck us into their world for the time it takes us to read their work. IMO that's not something you can teach.

I believe that something is emotion.

 

[Donald Miller]

Naw...just found out I'm a samurai. Midnight tonight, right? Was looking at the time thing, midnight Sunday...and was worried, thinking, is that like one minute after 11:59 p.m. Saturday. Haven't visited the site as yet to see if I'm tardy...and I won't be awake near midnight...so I could post it in the chat and you could put it where it needs to go? And then delete the chat? Knew a guy, too...navy this was...said everything twice. He was from New York, New York.

New york, New York. Yup that sounds familiar.

 

[50's Kid]

Don't take it personally. I obviously wasn't referring to you. I was referring to an attitude. Indeed, I'd be surprised if you hadn't encountered it yourself. But I suppose my resent indignation stems from trying to get a group of students together and discovering that only a few unfortunate folks like Walter and me need to study.
I wrote something earlier today that I got ready for publishing, and I published it a half hour ago.

Well, I occasionally run into creative people who are a little full of themselves. Some of it is impatience on their part; they forget how it was when they were just starting out. I know where I am in the learning process, and there is always going to be someone who is ahead of you, whatever you do in life. Sometimes, there are people in the technical fields who get a little high and mighty if they can figure out this or that circuit or program or a machine's theory of operation faster than you, but I have learned to not let it get to me. Rather, I try to determine if they are over compensating for a problem in their life that is really troubling them, and try to bring them around. I do that because I have been there, and it is a very lonely and unhappy existence.

We all have talents in various areas. I have tried, but I will not be able to master some trades, because the talent, drive or other requirements necessary to do so are just not there. But, I can do things well that the other people who are successful in those fields can not master. So, it all equals out, and we are like one huge team, working together to move civilization forward (well, most of us are trying to go forward, but a discussion of that is off-topic).

I have become Insufferable...The Killer of Hope...​

 

[VultureLvr45]

Naw...just found out I'm a samurai. Midnight tonight, right? Was looking at the time thing, midnight Sunday...and was worried, thinking, is that like one minute after 11:59 p.m. Saturday. Haven't visited the site as yet to see if I'm tardy...and I won't be awake near midnight...so I could post it in the chat and you could put it where it needs to go? And then delete the chat? Knew a guy, too...navy this was...said everything twice. He was from New York, New York. [/QU
Walt, I thought it is Midnight tonight (Sunday)! I need to add a couple of words and spit shine it first. I've got church and Sunday quilters too. Crap, gotta get off my can and get going.

 

[GNTLGNT]

GNT, let the Mods do their jobs. None of us as members have the right to pull rank on each other. We are all equal. *LOVE*

...not pulling rank, just freely expressing my opinion...

 

[GNTLGNT]

I got an email notice from someone on here that reads "...and with arrogance like that, your class is sure to fill up *snap*, just like that...how pretentious of you to waltz in here and immediately begin to tout your "wisdom" while insulting the vast majority of the members. And to "talk down" to us?...how dare you???...treating Madam Mack and others with poorly concealed scorn, is the mark of a small mind and smaller heart...you haven't been here long enough to render an opinion on any of us, and even if you had-respectful disagreement or opinion is the hallmark of the SKMB...you sir, have worn out your welcome and need to find the exit forthwith....," while bryras said, GNT, let the Mods do their jobs. None of us as members have the right to pull rank on each other. We are all equal. *LOVE*"

I've made some fast friends here, Walter and Vulture (Becki). They more than make up for the people who, I take it from the aforementioned comment, don't like me.

If you don't like me and have nothing positive to say to me, why waste your time badgering me?

AND I never once claimed that I'm a teacher. On the contrary, I have repeatedly stated that I am a "student." I am, in fact, a student seeking other students to learn with. I didn't realize that this was the place I should place all of my material in. Now I know. Dana Jean said, "Donald can self-promote till the cows come home. We just ask that it not overflow into every area of the board he posts in. Keep self-promotion in self-promotion."

So, there you go. We can each find our own entry-points and exits.

THANK YOU BRYRAS: "We are all equal. *LOVE*'" YES. Love, "Reign O'er Me!"

...it has nothing to do with liking you or disliking you as a person...it has everything to do with how you have presented yourself in print...I don't like your tone, period..and having said that, I'm bowing out of this "You & Me Against the World" party, before I truly express my full opinion...

 

[Flat Matt]

As I said earlier, writing is also a business, and making a living at it is nothing to look down one's nose at. It is a trade, like carpentry, music, plumbing, electrical, auto mechanic work, etc., etc., and a writer should also receive compensation for their hard work, and feel really proud that their accomplishments are valued enough by their fellow human beings to merit said payment.

This is an age-old debate about not being "true to your art", etc., and I frankly have always thought it is all a bunch of pompous rubbish.

If something is not published, then how do you expect anyone else to enjoy it? We stand on each others porches and talk about things, or sit around the proverbial campfire and tell stories, to communicate with each other. Otherwise we would just all go off into the woods and individually mumble to ourselves in solitude, and all social progress would come to a halt.

To be honest, I did take offense to the implied suggestion that I, as someone who is trying very hard to be published and make an honest living as a writer, is somehow of a lower stature than those whose motives are “more pure”. In fact, I was really ticked off, but didn’t want to say it, so thank you for bringing it up, and allowing me to vent.

View attachment 5745

You've more or less summed up exactly how I feel.

There is nothing wrong with having the ambition to be published. Writing is a passion, but it's also a creative process. Why create something if you have no desire for others to share and appreciate your work?

Having a book published means more than money in the bank. It means recognition of your ability and the effort you put into creating it. Even if you self-publish, you're putting your work out there to be judged and, hopefully, enjoyed by others. If you can actually make a living doing something you love, that's an added bonus.

Our friend, Donald, who protests so much about people wanting to be published, has himself written a short story, published it on his website, and then come here and posted a link to it 3 times on this thread alone. I fail to see any difference between that and what motivates other writers to share their work. The man clearly wants people to, not only join his group, but also read his story - and he's not exactly backward in coming forward when it comes to promoting himself.

There is a lot of snobbery in the literary world. Critics have slated "Fifty Shades of Grey" more times than I care to remember, but it's sold millions upon millions, and it's achieved that because it obviously has mass appeal. It's not my kind of thing, but I have nothing but admiration for E.L. James and what she's achieved. The same can be said of hugely successful self-published authors like Amanda Hocking and Darcie Chan.

 

[Dana Jean]

Well then wouldn't it be wise to tell the individual that from the git-go? And then not criticize the man...in a self-promotion thread...for self-promoting! I knew a man in Florida, the orphan Ramon Diaz, we'd sit in his garage converted to an apartment, table against the wall where the overhead door once moved, no windows, light on, cigarette smoke rising up through the shade, and Ray would tell me, Walter, you know why I say everything twice? He'd start to grin, pick up his cigarette and start to put it to his lips, smiling now, cause no one listens the first time! What we need is a designated welcomer in the self-promotion thread. I nominate you, Dana Jean, as your avatar would tell all they'd been heard and appreciated and perhaps they'd feel no need to say everything twice.

We did Walter. You have no idea what we are telling people privately. Plus, everyone should read FAQs and if they have questions, ask. They need to investigate the set-up of the board and watch how the community works.

 

[skimom2]

A person can learn to sing, dance, cook, and write. I thin


I believe that something is emotion.

That has something to do with it, I think, but it's not everything. It seems to me the Mr. Nobody did a great job of expressing the inexpressible: genius writers have a spark that even those who are very, very good cannot touch because it is unlearnable. The same is true of anyone who is truly gifted in any art or craft. Emotion can get you to good, or even very good (if you care enough to work at whatever it is), but there's a point beyond which only genius travels.

It makes me think of the movie Amadeus: Salieri had all of the passion and training it was possible to have…but Mozart had that spark, and indefinable something that took his work beyond passion and training. I wish emotion was enough to cross that line. I love to sing, sing my heart out at every opportunity…but I'll never be a Puccini, or even a Streisand. It's not my gift. Mr. King talked about that, I think in Danse Macabre, in mentioning how he plays guitar. He said that he loves it, has worked at it, but never progresses any further than he had at sixteen. Passion and training were there, but not the spark.

Doesn't mean it's not worth putting in the work to go from workmanlike to very good, though

 

[Donald Miller]

Well, I occasionally run into creative people who are a little full of themselves. Some of it is impatience on their part; they forget how it was when they were just starting out. I know where I am in the learning process, and there is always going to be someone who is ahead of you, whatever you do in life. Sometimes, there are people in the technical fields who get a little high and mighty if they can figure out this or that circuit or program or a machine's theory of operation faster than you, but I have learned to not let it get to me. Rather, I try to determine if they are over compensating for a problem in their life that is really troubling them, and try to bring them around. I do that because I have been there, and it is a very lonely and unhappy existence.

We all have talents in various areas. I have tried, but I will not be able to master some trades, because the talent, drive or other requirements necessary to do so are just not there. But, I can do things well that the other people who are successful in those fields can not master. So, it all equals out, and we are like one huge team, working together to move civilization forward (well, most of us are trying to go forward, but a discussion of that is off-topic).

I have become Insufferable...The Killer of Hope...​

View attachment 5746

"So, it all equals out" Not for some. Ford Madox Ford wrote dozens of novels -- worked with Conrad on three -- and helped establish the writing careers of some great writers of his time. He is still known for his work, "The Good Soldier." But, nevertheless, he is a tragic figure. He was ambitious and wanted to be a great writer, whereas he was only a good one. (Certainly self-aware and astute enough to realize that). During a conversation with a friend in his older years, he broke down and wept, knowing that he was the runt of the litter and that all of the people he rubbed elbows with, and indeed, some of whom he helped bring to fame through his magazine had surpassed him in talent.

 

[Rrty]

Walter, when you write that Greyhound lost your novel and paid you for it, do you mean you received $32,601 for it or $326.01? Or did you mean something else by that statement that I didn't pick up on?

 

[Walter Oobleck]

Walter, when you write that Greyhound lost your novel and paid you for it, do you mean you received $32,601 for it or $326.01? Or did you mean something else by that statement that I didn't pick up on?

The check was for $32601...no decimal point. When I called from the...In & Out on University...actually outside the restaurant like a White Castle? when I call from there, payphone, an 800 number to Des Moines corporate headquarters I told the...lady...who answered who I was and I was immediately connected to the president of the company. Heh! No elevator music, no wait, service. I go Greyhound today because of this. Service. They didn't realize they were paying me for my first novel...glory...I wish I had it now. The draft I do possess is nothing like the first. Listening to all that advice incorrectly...bad hearing me. Eventually, they did send the correct amount...two hundred some bucks for flannel shirts, blue jeans, this that the other, that jar of pennies, a few Christmas presents...yeah, I know, not much, what can fit in a seabag? I think that was the year I gave my folken my camera...an AE-1...got it back when my bro died, cleaned out the house...he took it over. Am I rambling? That was my zip, as the president told me...Gainesville, Florida. I had no clue.

 

[Rrty]

I see. So, the first check was in error, then you got the corrected second check. A very interesting story that could be the basis of either a short story, novel, or more likely, a screenplay. You should write it. Maybe the check could be larger, maybe the protagonist would need, for some reason, to write the novel again to pay the money back. Who knows, I'm stumped as to what the plot would be, but I really find that interesting (if the check were to be larger, maybe they entered the zip+4 code). Then again, maybe you already wrote something based on this.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[50's Kid]

"So, it all equals out" Not for some. Ford Madox Ford wrote dozens of novels -- worked with Conrad on three -- and helped establish the writing careers of some great writers of his time. He is still known for his work, "The Good Soldier." But, nevertheless, he is a tragic figure. He was ambitious and wanted to be a great writer, whereas he was only a good one. (Certainly self-aware and astute enough to realize that). During a conversation with a friend in his older years, he broke down and wept, knowing that he was the runt of the litter and that all of the people he rubbed elbows with, and indeed, some of whom he helped bring to fame through his magazine had surpassed him in talent.

Well, I don't think it is healthy to go through life constantly feeling that you are a failure, if you are not at the very tip top of the heap. There will always be someone who is better, and you will thus always feel inadequate and miserable.



Even though it may feel as if it is a race to be number one, it is more like traveling on a multi-lane highway. Some of us have faster cars and can ride in the fast lanes, while others are going a little slower.



Sometimes the best thing to do is enjoy the journey, and be thankful you are even in the race, for the short time allotted to all of us.



It is not uncommon for people to help others and not rise up along with them. That is just the way life goes, as when a [good] parent wants a better life for their kids than they had. Some of us are just catalysts, and that is our role at various points in our lives.



And some people achieve success and recognition at much too high a price, as in not spending enough time with their loved ones.

 

[Mr Nobody]

But you must realize that being criticised for a reason isn't the same thing as being criticised because the person is being mean.

Oh, indeed. I never meant to imply otherwise. It's just that people will be mean regardless of your level (because they can be, because they know no other way, or because they secretly admire what you've done, know they can't do better - or even as well - and can't handle the feelings of jealousy your work has inspired). If a comment is mean for meanness' sake, just do your best to ignore it. And yes, I know from experience how hard that can be. As I said before, I had a largely positive experience with an online writers' group. I had a very negative one when I joined my local writers' circle, though; some of it stemmed from the genres I wrote in and the rather snooty attitudes people took towards them, but a fair bit came from basic jealousy. (Not that I consider myself to be anything, really. People have read my stories and enjoyed them. Some have told me I'm good (at least in their opinion).)
At the end of the day all you can do is your best, and strive to improve if and where you can (whilst always bearing in mind that you're never the finished article, and even the greatest of the greats experienced self-doubt).

 

[Donald Miller]

Well, I don't think it is healthy to go through life constantly feeling that you are a failure, if you are not at the very tip top of the heap. There will always be someone who is better, and you will thus always feel inadequate and miserable.



Even though it may feel as if it is a race to be number one, it is more like traveling on a multi-lane highway. Some of us have faster cars and can ride in the fast lanes, while others are going a little slower.



Sometimes the best thing to do is enjoy the journey, and be thankful you are even in the race, for the short time allotted to all of us.



It is not uncommon for people to help others and not rise up along with them. That is just the way life goes, as when a [good] parent wants a better life for their kids than they had. Some of us are just catalysts, and that is our role at various points in our lives.



And some people achieve success and recognition at much too high a price, as in not spending enough time with their loved ones.

Oh, indeed. I never meant to imply otherwise. It's just that people will be mean regardless of your level (because they can be, because they know no other way, or because they secretly admire what you've done, know they can't do better - or even as well - and can't handle the feelings of jealousy your work has inspired). If a comment is mean for meanness' sake, just do your best to ignore it. And yes, I know from experience how hard that can be. As I said before, I had a largely positive experience with an online writers' group. I had a very negative one when I joined my local writers' circle, though; some of it stemmed from the genres I wrote in and the rather snooty attitudes people took towards them, but a fair bit came from basic jealousy. (Not that I consider myself to be anything, really. People have read my stories and enjoyed them. Some have told me I'm good (at least in their opinion).)
At the end of the day all you can do is your best, and strive to improve if and where you can (whilst always bearing in mind that you're never the finished article, and even the greatest of the greats experienced self-doubt).

I suppose writing students should take a class or two in psychiatry. Knowing what drives people you don't understand is important, I think. There's this interesting narcissist -- interesting if you don't have to be around him for very long -- on YouTube who has posts about what its like to be a narcissistic psychopath.