His Civil War series was one of the best pieces of television ever. I'll be watching this one for sure.
Ken Burns - Vietnam - PBS
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Yes! That one was riveting, too!
Good so far. Any doc that opens with Dylan's A Hard Rains Gonna Fall gets my attention.
I s'pose this is a good time to mention that this Thursday TCM has Don't Look Back, Monterey Pop, Woodstock, Hendrix...
Just avoid the brown acid.
I s'pose this is a good time to mention that this Thursday TCM has Don't Look Back, Monterey Pop, Woodstock, Hendrix...
Just avoid the brown acid.
I want to watch it, but I don't think I can bear it.
We saw a little bit of it. What we saw was gripping.
But having lived through it, through the irrationality and polarization of the country, the hopelessness of those who went to die, or come back and be reviled, all for no good reason, I'm not sure I can take the thorough exploration that Mr. Burns will so expertly give it.
Not the best moment in our country's history. Me, I can't wallow in it. But it's important to know. Please watch it. I will encourage that from a distance.
We saw a little bit of it. What we saw was gripping.
But having lived through it, through the irrationality and polarization of the country, the hopelessness of those who went to die, or come back and be reviled, all for no good reason, I'm not sure I can take the thorough exploration that Mr. Burns will so expertly give it.
Not the best moment in our country's history. Me, I can't wallow in it. But it's important to know. Please watch it. I will encourage that from a distance.
This one has a different feel than most of his others to me which I think has to do with more use of video than stills. I'm learning things I didn't know at the time but am coming away so far even more depressed than I'd been about the senselessness of the conflict when living through those times. Hearing what advisors did that had a lot more to do with an ego mentality, i.e. we have to win because we're Americans, isn't anything new to me but the extent to which they did it is. It's bringing up the anger again about so many people dying needlessly. And I wonder how much of that mentality and lack of understanding about local customs, politics, and way of thinking are factoring into our decision to remain in Iraq and Afghanistan under the guise of having to defeat the enemy there so it won't happen here again.
Used to own this book,Nam,by Mark Baker,thought it was excellent,need to get another copy,someone walked off with my copy..
Nam: The Vietnam War in the Words of the Men and Women Who Fought There by Mark Baker
The snippets that I've seen of blind patriotism being used to coddle horrendous and destructive policies have some sharp echoes even today. We can look and say, "Wow, we were really that stupid?" while turning around and seeing the same attitudes at our doorsteps. It is painful to watch.
There was one clip (can't remember the exact words but think it was a congressional hearing) that you could have put that person in a congressional hearing today using the same words because it still applies. It seems we've--especially politicians and military advisors--learned very little from past mistakes when it comes to waging war.
That was my era, my classmates/friends who served and many died. I pray this is not another example of "history repeats itself".
I can't handle seeing the bodies. It was different in the other shows because they just used still photos (as Marsha said above) but it's too much to see footage of them for me.
I missed the first couple of segments, but have watched the last two. It's really powerful stuff. I wasn't born until '69, so I was not part of that era, but I've always been fascinated by it. Has anyone read Shrapnel in the Heart by Laura Palmer (no, not Twin Peaks Laura Palmer)? I've never had a more visceral reaction to reading a book in my life. I remember literally sobbing during parts of it.
I am slowly making my way through this. I recorded them all and I'm so glad I did. I can watch them at my pace. When it all becomes too much, I can walk away. Too bad our American sons and daughters didn't have a pause button so they could've walked away.
Listening to the powers-that-be talk about this behind the scenes, but then omit or outright lie to the American people about the conflict is devastating. These humans were chess pieces in a big ol' chest beating, d*ck measuring fight.
My dad went to Viet Nam in 68 to 69. He was a cook--at the front lines. NEVER talked about it. Except the rats. He said you went to sleep and walk up with the sound of the rats chewing through the tarp. One night a rat got through and fell on his face. In the late 90's I sent him The Things They Carried by Tim O'Brien. He said it was a very realistic book about the war.
I just finished episode 5. Some observations:
One of the American soldiers, while being interviewed said he only killed one Vietnamese combatant -- from that point on, he turned a subject into an object. He made the enemy not human. He called it Racism 101.
The Vietnamese were brilliant fighters. Their objective was to get in close to the Americans, because then Americans were reluctant to call in air strikes on their own positions. They made the fight up close and personal. What the Americans called brawls. The Vietnamese knew the Americans controlled the air, but they controlled the ground. Take out their airstrikes and you win. Also, the "enemy" said that Americans were big and slow and obviously not used to the climate and terrain. They were small, quick and had home court advantage. And the absolute dedication of their people was quite patriotic.
The war was about real estate one guy said. Take real estate from them and deny them access. Fight over land that a half hour later, you abandon. Killed hundreds and hundreds of boys for land, and then abandoned it.
New guys quickly learned that war was brutal and to keep their mouths shut. No "fair" play.
"This is war. This is what we do." And yes, we did brutal things. Tiger Force, a renegade like company in the American war did war crimes. As one man stated in an article I looked up on the subject:
"The way to live is to kill because you don't have to worry about anybody who's dead."
The other side also did atrocities, cutting off ears, booby trapping dead bodies -- but was it in response to what we were doing?
With our men using M16s, we sent our children to fight a war against very clean, accurate and reliable Russian weaponry. Our M16s were jamming and boys found dead later had gunshots to their heads up close, and that upon further investigation, it was revealed their guns had jammed. Way to go America. The guns were about as effective as a water pistol.
Hey, if my kid is going to fight for you Amurica, you damn well better make sure he doesn't come out with "only his d*ck in his hand."
In an interview, a Vietnamese soldier said that Americans had one major weakness -- can you guess what that was?
Cigarette smoking.
All they had to do was follow the trail of cigarette butts that our GIs left like Hansel and Gretel.
And my final thought to this point: The out and out lying that our government did is just beyond pathetic. They had NO HONOR whatsoever as they needed to sell this war and keep mom and pop on board and sending in their little-boy-war-machines.
I'm not talking the GIs didn't have honor, I'm talking our government. A lot of the men they are interviewing wanted to fight for their country, but got over there and realized they had been lied to, and what's interesting, they kept the lie alive to their friends and family back home. Some more than likely not wanting to scare them. And some I'm sure, not wanting to admit they'd been duped.
No wonder this group of men came home drug addicted and wracked with PTSD.
or in a body bag.
One of the American soldiers, while being interviewed said he only killed one Vietnamese combatant -- from that point on, he turned a subject into an object. He made the enemy not human. He called it Racism 101.
The Vietnamese were brilliant fighters. Their objective was to get in close to the Americans, because then Americans were reluctant to call in air strikes on their own positions. They made the fight up close and personal. What the Americans called brawls. The Vietnamese knew the Americans controlled the air, but they controlled the ground. Take out their airstrikes and you win. Also, the "enemy" said that Americans were big and slow and obviously not used to the climate and terrain. They were small, quick and had home court advantage. And the absolute dedication of their people was quite patriotic.
The war was about real estate one guy said. Take real estate from them and deny them access. Fight over land that a half hour later, you abandon. Killed hundreds and hundreds of boys for land, and then abandoned it.
New guys quickly learned that war was brutal and to keep their mouths shut. No "fair" play.
"This is war. This is what we do." And yes, we did brutal things. Tiger Force, a renegade like company in the American war did war crimes. As one man stated in an article I looked up on the subject:
"The way to live is to kill because you don't have to worry about anybody who's dead."
The other side also did atrocities, cutting off ears, booby trapping dead bodies -- but was it in response to what we were doing?
With our men using M16s, we sent our children to fight a war against very clean, accurate and reliable Russian weaponry. Our M16s were jamming and boys found dead later had gunshots to their heads up close, and that upon further investigation, it was revealed their guns had jammed. Way to go America. The guns were about as effective as a water pistol.
Hey, if my kid is going to fight for you Amurica, you damn well better make sure he doesn't come out with "only his d*ck in his hand."
In an interview, a Vietnamese soldier said that Americans had one major weakness -- can you guess what that was?
Cigarette smoking.
All they had to do was follow the trail of cigarette butts that our GIs left like Hansel and Gretel.
And my final thought to this point: The out and out lying that our government did is just beyond pathetic. They had NO HONOR whatsoever as they needed to sell this war and keep mom and pop on board and sending in their little-boy-war-machines.
I'm not talking the GIs didn't have honor, I'm talking our government. A lot of the men they are interviewing wanted to fight for their country, but got over there and realized they had been lied to, and what's interesting, they kept the lie alive to their friends and family back home. Some more than likely not wanting to scare them. And some I'm sure, not wanting to admit they'd been duped.
No wonder this group of men came home drug addicted and wracked with PTSD.
or in a body bag.
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...all very good points, and as to the M-16, yes-the main issue was "fouling and jamming"......maybe this article will help.....
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/9/20/us-m16-a-half-century-of-america-s-combat-rifle/
Well, I read that and I'm glad that they have continued to improve on it. But it should never have been in combat in Vietnam without excessive testing first. We left our men vulnerable and they died because of it.
Imagine close, in-your-face fighting when someone raises a very efficient killing machine, and you raise wood, metal and plastic and nothing happens.
...I'm not making excuses-it was poorly designed and rushed into combat without sufficient testing.....
Oh, no. I knew you weren't. I was just commenting that a poor weapon was put in the hands of our fighting boys. A tremendous loss of life because of that. And it sounds like they have learned to do a better job before releasing them widespread.
....they should have all been equipped with the Armalite 15 or AR-15, until the M-16 was as bug free as possible......if I remember correctly, some guys were still carrying venerable M-1 Garand!.....