King Jv

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Dr. Fudd, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. Walter Oobleck
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    Walter Oobleck keeps coming back...or going, and going, and going

    The point is/was that they were not so wise that they saw coming what came from Herod. They did not see coming what came. They were not so wise, after all. Jesus' words, in the same gospel blunthead/Frank quotes above, are curious: "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children." Perhaps one could say the wise men were like little children? Was there also some prophecy about what Herod commanded be done? Don't recall, me.

    Zophar the Naamathite (Job) speaks these curious words, "Oh, how I wish that God would speak, that he would open his lips against you and disclose to you the secrets of wisdom, for true wisdom has two sides." Could one argue that the wise men were indeed wise? That their wisdom contained some unfathomable logic, two sides if you want? I don't know. Can't say one way or another. The result has not changed...babies were put to death.

    Is that from Isaiah, that Paul quotes in 1st Corinthians applicable? "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

    Too, the wise men were not so wise that they could get by without a dream warning them not to go back to Herod. Or was that their wisdom speaking to them in their dreams?

    Too, at one point Jesus told the Pharisees and teachers of the law, 'now one greater than Solomon (known for his wisdom) is here.' He continues with a story about an evil spirit...going out from a man, not finding rest, returning to the man, to the house it left...unoccupied, swept clean, put in order...taking with it seven others, the final condition of the man worse than before. We never hear about the wise man after the birth story...they depart with their wisdom to parts unknown. So perhaps that is integral to the story of Jesus, that one must accept the wisdom that comes from God.
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  2. skimom2
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    skimom2 Just moseyin' through...

    I agree with you about ritual, actually, if they're not understood. Along with idolatry, they can make people lacksadaisical--rote Christians, if you will, and it can happen in any faith. People who believe that if they do the 'things', they're A-OK. That's where education comes in, and when you're an adult that's up to YOU to accomplish.

    We may never agree in all particulars, Dr. Fudd, but I'm always open to respectful dialogue. Ultimately, we're all just humans, trying to do right. The God I believe in knows that, and loves us all for trying.
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  3. skimom2
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    skimom2 Just moseyin' through...

    I think they are not so much 'wise' men, in the way we interpret the word, but 'learned' men. They were scholars, and so would be 'wise' in interpretation of signs and they had the ability to scry the stars, but that gave them no more wisdom into the hearts of men than any other humans. In fact, many translations of the bible use the word 'astrologers' (those who study the stars, at that time) rather than the King James 'Wise men'.

    The prophecy referenced in Matthew, about from whence the Messiah would come, is a combination of a passage in Micah (5:1) and a passage in 2 Samuel (5:2).

    I think you're absolutely right about the ultimate lesson: we are to trust the wisdom from God.
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  4. skimom2
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    skimom2 Just moseyin' through...

    Walter, I just found what you were asking about. In Matthew 2:17, he ascribes the massacre of the innocents to the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:15. It's a bit of a stretch, as that prophecy is a figurative bewailment of Rachel over Israel's exile, but it can be seen to have a note of consolation: a guarantee of God's action to create a new people of God through Jesus. The actual massacre is not in prophecy, but it was prefigured by Phaeroh's massacre of all male infants 2 and under in Exodus. Remember, Matthew was writing to a Jewish audience, to whom these stories and prophecies were a way of life.
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  5. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    I appreciate your flexibility on discussing the "particulars". I will always endeavor to bring to bare the bible, not my own opinion and to speak the "truth in love" as Jesus commands. That love also demands it be said respectfully. Although Jesus did call the Pharisees all sorts of names...

    So let me try out my new toy. I may have asked, literally, hundreds of Catholics this: does the use of images in the church concern you since the bible clearly forbids them? In the 10 commandments in Exodus 20:4 it says, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven (molten-in some translations) image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" and goes on in the next verse to say, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;" This is repeated again in Deu 5:8. (There is also a very interesting variation in Exodus 34). I'm going to purposely not ask multiple questions, too, because the responses get really unruly(lengthy). Do you feel that what the Catholic churches does is contrary to the bible? And I'm not just pointing out the Catholic church in this, protestant churches do the same thing, I'm only specifying the Catholic church because that's where you're going to have the most experience.
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  6. skimom2
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    skimom2 Just moseyin' through...

    Not at all, insofar as my interpretation (and that of my faith) is those verses are in reference to worship of idols, images, etc. I understand that there are faiths that prohibit any images being made, based upon this translation, but the King James is not the only translation of these ancient books (and perhaps I shouldn't even have dropped by, with that in mind). For example, the New American translation of those same verses: "You shall not carve idols for yourselves in he shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generations;"

    As I (nor any Catholic who knows the teachings of our faith) don't worship any image, I'm not worried. :) A statue, a picture, a stained glass... all are like a picture of family. They are to remind us of those we love. One who goes beyond looking at them with affection isn't acting within the teachings of the church.
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  7. Neesy
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    Neesy #1 fan (Annie Wilkes cousin) 1st cousin Mom's side

    Being a former Catholic (although a priest once said to me, once a Catholic, always a Catholic) I would answer this way - we are not worshipping a statue of Mary or of Jesus or even of Joseph. It is a symbol of the Holy Family that Jesus was part of on Earth before going up to Heaven. How is that worshipping an idol?

    I think perhaps the Bible meant people who worships goats (sorry Dana Jean) or cows or some other such thing. Besides the 10 Commandments are from the old testament. I am not saying throw them out (Heaven forbid!) just that they were possibly referring to idolatry.

    "When the commandment was given, opportunities to participate in the honor or worship of idols abounded, and the religions of Canaanite tribes neighboring the Israelites often centered around a carefully constructed and maintained cult idol." (This is copied from Wikipedia, for what it's worth)

    Idolatry is a pejorative term for the worship of an idol or a physical object such as a cult image as a god, or practices believed to verge on worship, such as giving honour and regard to created forms.

    Are you offended by a statue of Jesus Christ?

    I am the LORD thy God
    Thou shalt have no other gods
    No graven images or likenesses
    Not take the LORD's name in vain
    Remember the Sabbath day
    Honour thy father and thy mother
    Thou shalt not kill
    Thou shalt not commit adultery
    Thou shalt not steal
    Thou shalt not bear false witness
    Thou shalt not covet
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  8. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    The name of the group is more a pun on where we are(Stephen King), and not specifically the translation of the bible. I do like the King James but I read all versions on a yearly basis. What is most useful to me is reading the original translated texts. You stated my fear for people in denominations "not bow down" it says not to worship them but specifically, to not bow down before them. Much like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego,in Daniel 3, I'm sure there were Hebrew lads that were just bowing down to avoid being burned to death that had no intention of worshiping the golden image. But were they delivered? We know Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were.
    I've heard the defense that well, none of our images are molten or graven, they're molded, or painted, or drawn. Does that matter? Isn't that just a legalistic way around the actual commandment? My yard stick here is a perfect God. A loving God but a perfect God. We are not saved by other than faith through grace, but the bible also states that if you do specific things, you will not make heaven your home. My main question is, why take the risk when it specifically states in all texts to avoid images?
  9. skimom2
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    skimom2 Just moseyin' through...

    It's a difference in interpretation, I think. You read 'images', I read 'idols'. You're mistaking affection/respect for worship, perhaps? 'Bowing down' is worship. No one kneels to a statue or a picture (as if expecting the staue or picture to DO SOMETHING); we kneel in the presence of the Lord. The statues/pictures are immaterial.

    Look, do you have pictures of your family/friends? If so (and you may not, but you're online so I'm not sure you're Amish or one of the other sects that prohibit images), do that mean you worship them? You're clearly represented by an avi--is that not an image of something upon earth? So are you therefore taking a chance with your salvation by being here? I suspect you would answer 'no' to this and the previous question.

    "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."-William Shakespeare
  10. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    The verses didn't stop with animal worship, it spoke to moon, stars, earth, things in the earth, the dead, (anyone but Jesus who is alive now and always), the living but not Christ "angels" etc.
    Idolatry is a biblical term. I don't think the question is whether or not it offends me, but whether or not it offends Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit. After all, the statue is not of Jesus. It doesn't even closely resemble the description of Him in the bible(hair like wool?). So I guess on that basis, yeah, it is offensive to me. But more to the point is what God thinks of it. And whether or not it's an "old" law. The bible states in Heb13:8 that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. If you believe that Jesus is God, then God doesn't change. If you believe that Jesus is the Word, then the Word doesn't change. At some point, if you're going to determine what isn't relevant in todays' world, when are you going to stop throwing out verses from Gods' Word? Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Matt4:4 and Luke 4:4. That would indicate that every word that God has spoken, is life. I'm not claiming some high moral ground here. My adamancy here is the fear for the souls of people that do something out of tradition that is contrary to the will of God. I don't know if these are salvation issues, but since God specifically commands against them, I have to think they are.
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  11. Neesy
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    Neesy #1 fan (Annie Wilkes cousin) 1st cousin Mom's side

    Just accept that Jesus Christ died for our sins and is the son of God - what more do you need?
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  12. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    Precisely! Interpretation. It says all of these things specifically about worship, not about your family photo album. In the context of the verses, and not in a private interpretation as the bible also states, it says multiple times to not bow down before images, not to worship them and not to make them. Since I don't bow down before my family album and those images were not made as idols, they are not what the context of the verses are speaking to. The bible doesn't need me to interpret it, it interprets itself. It says do not make for yourself idols. That seems pretty clear to me that it's not saying, don't draw a picture of a bowl of fruit, unless of course you intend on bowing down before that bowl of fruit. I like fruit, and my relatives, but not enough to worship them.
    The pictures and statues aren't immaterial if it offends God. There are enough incidences in the bible where God was offended, but didn't let them know until after they went into battle and were decimated. It was, oh and by the way, there's sin in the camp. That's why you just got whipped in battle.
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  13. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    I love this question! John 14:15 Jesus says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." The purpose of this thread is to study the bible and learn more about Christ to become closer to Him. Not to argue the specifics. I'm merely asking you to go to the bible and search the scriptures. Read the Word, and know that the Word is Jesus Christ. When you read the word of God you look on the face of Christ.
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  14. Neesy
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    Neesy #1 fan (Annie Wilkes cousin) 1st cousin Mom's side

    Okay - isn't that the whole point? I do not wish to argue or debate with you and I agree reading the Bible is important. I will go look in the Bible - thanks for the advice Dr. Fudd!
  15. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    I didn't think I could love you anymore than I do, and now I do! I get excited and forget what my purpose is here, everywhere really. Read the bible, pray to Jesus and ask the Holy Spirit (the most ignored person of the trinity) what He would speak into your life. When you hear that voice get ready, because today our salvation is closer than when we began!
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  16. skimom2
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    skimom2 Just moseyin' through...

    And I restate that these are NOT created as idols. They are very much the 'family photo album' you mentioned.

    And it's ALL interpretation, as most laymen do not have the skills to read the texts in the original Latin, Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew. Even if you have some of those languages, we may have lost some subleties over time. The bible was not written by God, it was written by a variety of men over millenia. The books we currently use aren't even all of the books that were written and which were referred to by the faithful for centuries. We trust that God's hand was in the writing and choice of which books to include in the standard canon, but we must understand that the mind and hand of man was involved. To insist that one particular interpretation is the 'right' one, a particular wording that you like, and you let that drive you apart from your fellow man, it is legalism (for which some churches were strongly chastised in the New Testament).

    We can go around and around about this, but we'll never agree, Fudd. Neesy caught the heart and soul of the matter: if Christians can agree that Jesus Christ is the son of God and a Savior(and not insist that everyone else agree with them about religion), we can get along just fine.
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2013
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  17. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    And that was my point in continuing this thread from the old board. Jesus saves us by His sacrifice but we don't know anything about that sacrifice apart from the bible. It's bible study and prayer that brings souls to God through Christ. The bible says that the bible is God breathed. I understand the elimination of books of the bible. But if you don't believe that God is strong enough to provide an accurate account of His will, then what can you place your faith in? Man? His writing of some text? I've experienced the miracles promised in the bible, repeatedly. I've studied other faiths and disciplines created by man and none of them delivered. Christ through prayer and the bible does. It's hidden to all but those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. The bibles that are unearthed from antiquity match what we have today. How much is lost has never been apparent from scriptures recovered from the past. Ask God to speak directly to you through His scripture. He'll do it.
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  18. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    I'm sorry if I'm ruffling feathers but I LOVE THIS!!!! I love studying the bible and I love different views about the bible, God and faith. It helps me learn and depend more on God for what I speak and how I walk in faith. Just from this exchange today I've broken open almost every text (book) I have! Thank you all for your participation. I welcome any questions that begin with "Well what about this?!" You can even type it in snotty text, I won't mind.
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  19. blunthead
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    blunthead Well-Known Member

    Hi. There's so much in this thread lately in terms of verbiage that I won't attempt to read it all in order to feel caught up. I do check the thread everyday, but it's taken flight over "idols". I was not raised in the Catholic church, and so don't have experience with people Catholics in a church setting. I don't know whether in my opinion most, many or any Catholics' relationships with certain trappings indicate an idolatrous attitude; that is, that those trappings have taken God's place in those Catholics' minds and hearts. My assumption is that the vast majority of Catholic believers consider the items in question a familiar comfort, and not an object which has any intrinsic power of its own. I believe that while God is not religious, people are, and so rules (laws) emerge from within person and a society. I believe it's human nature to desire rules in order to be able to obey, and so feel less guilty - forgiven. But what unfortunately comes with that is the tendency to believe others must act as we ourselves must (self-imposed, based on our personal interpretations of which things are right and which wrong). All kinds of negative emotions come along with the habit of looking not toward and for God but at people.

    It's way too required by the subject at hand - God - that posts here be lengthier than I can tolerate trying to read, even my own. Remind me to one day share with you guys something I believe God showed me about the Law and Grace.
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  20. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    I can sum up my part pretty quickly. I resist anything that competes with Jesus for attention.
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