King Jv

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Dr. Fudd, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. Dr. Fudd

    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    It says that in the verse prior to, "
    Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

    You don't see, 'don't make any images of any kind' in this verse?
     
    Neesy and blunthead like this.
  2. blunthead

    blunthead Well-Known Member

    You seriously believe God, Who gave us artistic creativity as an important means of therapeutic self-expression, then tells us not to use that creativity? No, I do not see what I assume you're looking at (you still haven't been specific enough for me) as idols, but instead such as expressions of love and appreciation to God.
     
    Neesy likes this.
  3. Dr. Fudd

    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    The context is to not make images in reference to worship, what people do at and as the church. I haven't used the word idol in this. This verse doesn't use the word idol, it says image and it says likeness. It doesn't even suggest that you will idolize the objects, it just says, don't make them.
     
    blunthead and Neesy like this.
  4. staropeace

    staropeace Richard Bachman's love child

    Merry Christmas my Christian brothers and sisters. Happy Holidays to other friends enjoying the season as well. Love you all.

    And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.
    2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
    3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
    4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)
    5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
    6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
    7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
    8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
    9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
    10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
    11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
    12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
    13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
    14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
     
    jchanic, SusanNorton and Neesy like this.
  5. blunthead

    blunthead Well-Known Member

    I still do not know what sort of images you mean by "in reference to worship".
     
    Neesy likes this.
  6. blunthead

    blunthead Well-Known Member

    Just so everyone here knows, Dr Fudd and I go back a ways, and we're cool. I always like to hear his thoughts about the Bible. I'm personally just a little stuck right now. He'll clear it up for me. :)
     
    Neesy likes this.
  7. Neesy

    Neesy #1 fan (Annie Wilkes cousin) 1st cousin Mom's side

    I'm glad to hear that Blunt. If you were stuck in a window (or a rabbit hole) I would pull you out!
    [​IMG]
    :laugh:
     
    blunthead likes this.
  8. blunthead

    blunthead Well-Known Member

    That's good to know. I'll wait to get stuck in one of those until yer around. :)
     
    Neesy likes this.
  9. Neesy

    Neesy #1 fan (Annie Wilkes cousin) 1st cousin Mom's side

    Just don't eat too much honey and you'll be fine! ;)
     
    blunthead likes this.
  10. blunthead

    blunthead Well-Known Member

    Too late. :apologetic:
     
    Neesy likes this.
  11. HollyGolightly

    HollyGolightly Well-Known Member

    oh merciful heavens! I don't know if I'm getting the jist of all this, but it sounds like a difference in the translation of the commandments. The commandment you speak of, as I learned it, says : You shall have no other Gods before me. That can be money, lust, television, et al. -whatever comes between you and your relationship with God. I have icons, statues, crucifixes, art all around me - in my home, in my office, around my neck. They are all images of God - I don't worship statues and images, as so many think Catholics do - rather, as skimom2 said, they are like pictures of family: an image to bring to mind all things holy in the midst of this crazy world, a reminder of how brave and obedient the saints were, how completely our Blessed Mother and Joseph trusted in God, an easier way to wrap my mind around the vastness of God. Sometimes, to light a candle at the feet of the statue of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and lay my head at His feet and pray and cry, lifts me up in a way that I don't think anything else could. There He is, looking just like any other 1st century Palestinian, and yet He is fully God and fully man.
     
  12. HollyGolightly

    HollyGolightly Well-Known Member

    Spoken like a Catholic honey! :biglove:That priest was right.
     
    blunthead, SusanNorton and Neesy like this.
  13. blunthead

    blunthead Well-Known Member

    I think I might finally be understanding, a little, what Dr Fudd's original question is concerning the presence of the "images". He has corrected that his point is not that people worship such images, but instead that people create the images in the first place despite, according to Fudd's reading, being instructed not to. If I'm correct in interpreting Fudd's point, then his question is not of an accusatory kind and is no the same sort of statement mad against the Catholic church historically.

    My own response to Dr Fudd's question is that when God uses the term "image" and "likeness" the idea of idolatry is built-in, it's understood in context; consequently, to interpret, or misinterpret, imho, the admonition not to make any images or likenesses is not necessarily confusing.
     
    Neesy likes this.
  14. Dr. Fudd

    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    If you read the 10 commandments, looking at the first few commandments, it leads you into "remember the sabbath". Before that, it says to not bow down before them(images, likenesses). There aren't many instances where bowing down is not a representation of worship specially when it mentions serving them. Also that it is prefaced with, you shall have no gods before me.

    I consider all that the bible says and all that I do in the light that Christ died for me. He suffered unimaginably for days before he was actually crucified (essentially tortured and murdered), more unimaginable suffering. All God asks is that we believe in Him, and then do what Jesus says, "John14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments." If I'm wrong and God doesn't mind that images were made and that candles were lit and statues were prayed in front of, then there's no problem. But what if it is a problem for God? Jesus warning is, "if you love me, keep my commandments". So not keeping them is the same as not loving Him. I'm also not suggesting that there are only 10 commandments, those are the law. Jesus fulfillled and added to the commandments extensively. After belief in Christ, is repentance and obedience to Him. I fear for the souls of all who do what the bible forbids. I fear for the souls of all who claim the name of God but don't read His word. I fear for the souls of those who use the word of God to excuse their behavior instead of letting it convict them. God is a perfect God, He's a loving God, but he ended paradise (whether symbolically or not, whichever you believe) because of one transgression, eating from a tree that was forbidden. Guilty of one sin makes you guilty of them all. The verses that terrify me for Christians are Matt 7:21-23 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." This is the most tragic group. Sinners will know that they were sinners. The saved will know that they were saved, but these will believe that they're going to heaven, but will end up in hell. What could be worse? They were going to church, casting out demons, doing great works, but were so tied up with doing church, they weren't being Christ followers. I beg all that read this to read the word of God, to pray only to Jesus, He's the only one that intercedes for us, He's the only one that paid the price for us. Everyone else that is in heaven is dead to the world, only Christ is our intercessor to the Father. You eat every day to feed your body, read the bible every day to feed the Holy Spirit in you. It's more important than you believe.
     
    jchanic, Neesy and blunthead like this.
  15. blunthead

    blunthead Well-Known Member

    That's the scariest verse for me, too, Fudd, as is true for many the sincere, humble Christian. I think anyone who actually looks forward to The Great White Throne Judgment is kidding themselves. Everything about each of us individually, everything we've done and said, everything we continue to rely on to be secret, will be exposed openly. The only hope, imho, is as how I heard the scene described once: It's time for this Christian to stand before God in His court. He's guilty. There's more than enough evidence necessary for the conviction, and the punishment is always the same: eternal death, eternity separated from any kind or conception of love or hope. But as God is about to pass sentence Jesus, who's been sitting next to the Christian as counsel, stands and says, "Your Honor, this man cannot be judged for these offenses, because payment for them was exacted by my death, and he is forgiven all transgressions by the blood of the sacrificial lamb which Your Honor required, and which was provided." No one escapes The White Throne otherwise.

    As for those who will end up qualifying for "…depart from Me…", for me it's still something of a mystery who these folks will be. It is very troubling, indeed.

    As for what "bowing down" is, of course it means worship. That's what I've been wondering about, because you said you had not mentioned idols when you were referring to "images", now you seem to be referring to the images which concern you as idols after all. I believe that for my part, I'm now beating a dead horse, and plan not to broach the matter again in this Bible study.

    I like that you speak to Jesus' "commandments", that there are more than just the Ten, because it's been a favorite realization of mine, that whenever Jesus tells his followers to do this and not that, that those statements are commandments; equally, one of my favorite scriptures has become "If you love me you will obey my commandments". So, if Jesus tells us not to worry about tomorrow, for instance, if we love Him we begin to learn how not to worry about tomorrow. He tells us to do and not do lots and lots of things - there are lots and lots of commandments.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
    Neesy likes this.
  16. Dr. Fudd

    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    I am making a distinction between bowing down before images/likenesses and idols. In the bible, the two are mentioned separately. I believe that's because first you create the image or likeness, and after time, you turn it into an idol. Even if you weren't intending to. You can turn the invisible into an idol too, "my god wouldn't do that!" If what you are claiming is inconsistent with what the bible shows that God has done, you've just created an idol. Made a god with your own hands. One that agrees with your life style instead of your lifestyle agreeing with Gods word. The bible can become an idol too. It's very easy for us to be distracted from what's important. We're not referred to as sheep in the bible for nothing. Sheep aren't that bright. Over time, we become desensitized to what's dangerous. We become indoctrinated in what seems "good" and then we accept political correctness because it seems "fair". It's all the world, and it's all a trap. Fortunately we have the Holy Spirit and the occasional nudge from God that we may be getting it wrong. Be we don't always listen. Which is why there are so many denominations. Complete surrender to Jesus is the only way through.
     
    Neesy and blunthead like this.
  17. blunthead

    blunthead Well-Known Member

    Interesting per the images/idols; a perspective I've not been shown before. There are certain scriptures I tend to return to even after all these years (38, so far) directly relative to the subject at hand as I see it. One is "...straight is the gate and narrow the way…", which has always helped me refocus generally. Another is "...Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time…", which to me is the only scriptural formula for being lifted up by God. All of Matthew 24 helps humble, frighten, and encourage me per the "last days" and how to avoid the pitfalls and deception which will abound and is abounding. I think what may be inescapable is the need for fellowship, whether in church assemblies or in casual meetings, doing lunch, however it's gotten.
     
  18. Dr. Fudd

    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    Your proof for fellowship is in Acts 2:46-47 "And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."
    The Acts church, which is the blueprint for the church today, spent all of their time together. It was essential for not only those in the church, but as you read verse 47, to be able to add to the church.
     
    blunthead likes this.
  19. Dr. Fudd

    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    I don't know if I can be helpful here or just stir more confusion into your understanding. Jesus is most certainly the focus. The commandments are a guide for us now. They used to be the law and the only way to be saved, by following them strictly. God gave us Jesus Christ because we couldn't follow the law. But the direction of those laws still stands, the only change is in the way we are saved, by faith through grace and not of works, as the bible says. We now are saved by the blood of Christ, and not by our adherence to the law. That doesn't eliminate following the law. It's still our guide line and when you read Jesus speaking of the law, the only one He doesn't mention is the sabbath. The sabbath was the day that the priests accessed God for the congregation. But if you remember the line that says during the crucifixion, and the veil was rent in two (in Matt, Mark and Luke) that was the symbolic sign that we now had access to God through Christ whenever we wanted. The veil was the thick veil that surrounded the arc of the covenant in the tabernacle, where only a cleansed priest could enter. Making Jesus our intercessor and removing the need for a priest to intercede for us. That also puts the onus of following the bible on us as well. If the bible says to not make images or idols or things in reference to worship, I feel it's important to not do so and to exhort others to read what is there. The difference between the religious symbols you have in your house and the art pieces (if not themed on religion) is that the commandment only pertains to images and likenesses that relate to worship of God through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit. Which also entails prayer only to Jesus, and to no other person living or dead. You don't have to make something visible to have an idol. Praying to other than Jesus is just as much idolatry as a golden calf. Only Jesus died for us to pay out debt for sins, no one else. So to pray to someone other than Jesus is to say to our Savior, you just aren't enough for me, I need to pray to this person.
    Hopefully this doesn't cause you more confusion.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2013
    blunthead and HollyGolightly like this.
  20. HollyGolightly

    HollyGolightly Well-Known Member

    @Dr. Fudd - I'm not sure whether we agree then, or we disagree. But that's OK. It's apparent we do both believe in God & Jesus, so I really don't have any argument - not that I'd argue even with an atheist - God's grace is for everyone.
     
    SusanNorton and blunthead like this.

Share This Page

AGM Out Now