King Jv

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Dr. Fudd, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. blunthead
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    blunthead Well-Known Member

    I guess I have to ignore my last promise to stop with the dead horse. The above statements I've bolded for the reason that I continue not to know what the type(s) of images you are referring to actually are. If you are intending to avoid the possibility of being publicly offensive, I honor and appreciate that, but if you will please PM me with a more specific example - send a pic or two, if you like. To describe an image as relating or referring to worship is nonspecific enough as to be meaningless to me. You get a bit closer with a work of art themed on religion, I assume, as I can picture such artworks which, imo, are so themed, though I personally, sincerely doubt that God ever meant such works (as I imagine) as no-nos. Nevertheless, the Bible commands that I not be or place a stumbling block in the way of my brother, and so respect your interpretation of scripture and won't suggest you try to see something which could cause you trouble.
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  2. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    I think arguing is useless. Stating the purpose of Jesus and exhorting the gospel is the purpose. Being aware that the bible is the guideline and adhereing to it is where I often fall into trouble, and arugment. if we can't agree that likenesses and images are prohibited by the 10 commandments, and shown to be a continual stumbling block through out the old testament as well, then the conversation doesn't have to end but I have to just stop trying to convince you. Besides, it's not me that does the convincing anyway, it's the Holy Spirit. I can tell you that I fear for you eternal soul. I don't say that to bash Catholics, I don't feel that you can't be saved in the Catholic church, but as in any church, you can think you're ok, and not be. The bible is pretty clear about that, Read Matt 7:21-23 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." These people felt that they were doing Gods will but they weren't. I always fear for the souls of those that are doing things that are forbidden in the bible, as well as ask myself, am I doing what the bible says, what God desires me to do? Through prayer and reading the bible daily I am continually guided by it. If I have a question about doctrine I pray about it and ask God to reveal the answer to me. When I read the bible, the answer is always there, no matter where I happen to be reading (I read by a bible in a year schedule) and wherever I am, there's the answer. I pray you would do the same. Ask the Lord in prayer if you are in His will and then read the bible to see His answer. It's an amazing experience.
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  3. blunthead
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    blunthead Well-Known Member

    Yer too vague, Fudd. I dunno if I agree or disagree.
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  4. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    You're familiar with the Episcopal church. I've seen a lot of Episcopal churchs having also been raised that way. They have crosses, they have "pictures" of Jesus and statues of Jesus and many wear a prayer garment that they kiss before and after wearing it. They have icons of all sorts. This is a place that's supposed to be dedicated to worshiping the Lord, not things that the Lord has said to not make for the process of worship, let alone use. Yes, the bible clearly says not to place a stumbling block in front of someone, but doesn't it as clearly state to not make things that look like things in "heaven above" (images of: God, Jesus, angels) things "in earth beneath", (images of: pictures of crosses, animals) and things "in the water under the earth" (pick a pagan religion and what they worship). Ex 20:4, again for your conveinience. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." It seems pretty clear to me, yet it's not so clear to everyone. I don't know why that is. Why 'Jesus died for our sins' is unanimously accepted by all people that claim to believe in Christ, but 'do not make images and likenesses or bow down before them' is not. I pray the Holy Spirit either opens the eyes of those who do not see the truth, or opens my eyes to see the truth.
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  5. blunthead
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    blunthead Well-Known Member

    But you stopped quoting after "…water under the earth…", which, as you know, goes on to say not to bow down to them or worship them. So, while I respect your personal need to avoid creating images which you feel God doesn't want people to create, I also respectfully disagree with your interpretation of what God is saying about the subject. I mean, I'll never try to convince you not to have the feelings or the belief that you have, because it could cause a problem for you in your walk with Jesus. So, my answer to your original question is that I do not personally believe that God objects to the creation of the images as I interpret them described, as long as they are not created with a view to use in an idolatrous relationship - as if a real relationship is possible with an inanimate object. I think God considers the practice, if you will, an abuse of His creation- to take something which is created and mean to "create" something that God did not.
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  6. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    You've lost me here. I was saying God says not to make objects to clarify what objects, because you said I was being too vague, and then you say I stopped quoting at the very point I've been trying to make in saying that the bible says to not make images and likenesses to bow down before them. If in the church there is a statue, one person bows down before it and worships God, but the person next to them bows down and worships the statue, where is the problem? The stumbling block is the statue isn't it? The bible is clear for those with weak minds to avoid meat offered to idols, although it would not affect Paul (who speaks about it) but says, instead of causing that weak minded person to stumble, Paul will not eat meat. If someone from a pagan religion who is from a idolatrous back ground, then converts and comes to a church with statues and crucifixes, couldn't that cause them to revert to worshiping the items instead of God according to the testimony we hear about it from Paul?
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  7. blunthead
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    blunthead Well-Known Member

    Yes, such a person could conceivably find such items in a church a trigger, a stumbling block. But that shouldn't be a reason the church should prohibit them, because when and how will the prohibitions end? The new believer has a responsibility to care for his own spirituality and will certain face far worse in this world than to resist that temptation.

    I simply disagree with you about this matter, being perhaps of a more liberal spiritual mindset. Islam demanded that a certain sanctuary's beautiful artwork be destroyed when they got hold of it, and it was destroyed. I wonder if they'd been Christians who decided to destroy it what your opinion would be.
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  8. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    If the bible didn't say not to have images and idols I wouldn't have a problem with images and idols in churches. If those items were not in a worship setting, I wouldn't have a problem with them. The bible is specific to faith, worship and the desire of God, it's not about public art objects or anything of a non-worship walking with God setting. If a religious object is to be destroyed, it would be the desire of it's owner, as it related in the bible itself in the new testament. You don't see any of the old testament practices being performed in the new testament than other than Jesus Himself, driving out money changers and merchants from the church, soon to be obsolete practices in themselves as soon as Jesus went to the cross for us. But those who converted, burned their own "curious arts books". That would be my opinion.
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2013
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  9. rudiroo
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    rudiroo Well-Known Member

    This is a fascinating thread & respect to Dr.Fudd for putting it out here.

    It's a pity that there aren't any Jewish contributions to the debate, because SK has a Tanakh sensibility (to me).
    Christianity is the nemesis for a lot of SK scenarios, but not all.
    Full disclosure here: it's difficult not to get bad vibes from the belief system that's caused us so much. . you know.
    Especially in Europe.
    But it's a mitzvah (commandment) to treat everyone - Jewish or otherwise - with respect.
    All I can do is do my best.

    And where are the Brits?
    Rarely having a civilized discussion about religion on any message board, that's for sure.
    And that's a pity too.
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  10. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    Hi and welcome to the thread. We've had Jewish contributions in the past (on the previous board), when we had active Jewish members. People come and go (some even converted). Same for British contributions. They're here, but they may have said what they had to say and maybe don't feel inclined to repeat it or add to this reincarnation of the thread. Part of the reason is what you state, often people have difficulty in discussing something emotional, unemotionally. It's hard to hear your beliefs contradicted, even if it's from your own bible, let alone from someone else's.

    I've seen the over reaching fight in SK works as good over evil, but never noticed Christianity as the nemesis, except for evil. It's a grounding source of good in The Stand and the symbol of sacrifice of Christ in the young boy in Desperation are the two that spring to mind. Christianity has specific reference, actually mentioned, in the two stories and it is the ultimate good that wins out.

    You bring up another issue I often hear, but you stated in the form that I tend to agree with, that all people of religions should be treated with respect. I often hear that all religions should be treated with respect and I patently disagree with that. To use an obvious extreme, if a religion were to practice infant sacrifice you wouldn't respect that, but you could respect the choice of the practitioners to do so. I use an extreme to make my point. On the more reasonable scale, say as a Christian, you could respect a person that believed that Jesus was not a God but only a man blessed by God and given power on earth, but in believing that Jesus is God, you couldn't respect that religion, only the freedom of that person to believe what they choose to believe.
  11. blunthead
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    blunthead Well-Known Member

    Wanna know how I respond to the idea that Jesus was a great prophet, rabbi, teacher, man, good guy, but not The Son of God (God in the flesh)? Ok, I'll tell you. I say what CSLewis said, that Jesus Christ was either precisely who He claimed to be, The Son of God, or He was the craziest lunatic who ever lived. Lewis says that much of what Jesus is quoted as having said is lunacy if He wasn't Whom He claimed to be, such as "...Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." - John 2:19. Add to such quotes the fact that He allowed Himself to die as He did.
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  12. Neesy
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    Neesy #1 fan (Annie Wilkes cousin) 1st cousin Mom's side

    Is your quote from the book "Mere Christianity"? I borrowed it years ago from a good friend and then he forgot to pick it up before moving out West.
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  13. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    That is THE best way to get free books...
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  14. Neesy
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    Neesy #1 fan (Annie Wilkes cousin) 1st cousin Mom's side

    :lol:Cut that out! (He was an old boyfriend!) :okay:
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  15. blunthead
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    blunthead Well-Known Member

    Yes, I think that's the book that quote is found in.
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  16. Neesy
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    Neesy #1 fan (Annie Wilkes cousin) 1st cousin Mom's side

    I'll go look it up - it's in my book shelf - thanks!
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  17. blunthead
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    blunthead Well-Known Member

    Yer welcome!
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  18. rudiroo
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    rudiroo Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the generous spirit in which you answered my comments - & the welcome, of course!

    I've flagged up this extract from your quote, because it's reminded me that I don't have theological comments with non-Jews.
    And that's my loss.

    My best shot at explaining where I stand (in relation to that extract) is that Judaism is more than a belief system - it affects every aspect of our lives.
    How we treat other people.
    What we do today in the world, here & now.
    It's our culture, community, history and belief system (non-religious Jews would disagree on the last bit).
    We don't think we've got the monopoly on truth - we're just right for us.

    A very wise Jew called Hillel said this:
    I think he meant all our neighbors, Jewish or not:semi-twins:

    Let me know if I've misunderstood your point.
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  19. rudiroo
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    rudiroo Well-Known Member

    Sorry folks - got distracted & posted the same reply twice - more or less!:hmm:
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  20. FlakeNoir
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    FlakeNoir Beta/Moderator Moderator

    That's okay, took care of the first one for you. :)
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