King Jv

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Dr. Fudd, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. FlakeNoir
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    FlakeNoir Beta/Moderator Moderator

    I can't hold with this line of thinking... that somebody has to be wrong and the whole 'there can be only one' thing.... because, nobody knows what happens after we die, nobody. People might think they know... but nobody living, actually knows for sure.
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  2. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    Then you run into a problem with the definition of truth then don't you? What I do know is, nothing I've tried has worked until I accepted Christ. When I pray, I get answers. When I ask for help,l get it. I never cared about anyone but myself until I asked Jesus into my life. Now I fear for the present and eternity of everyone I come in contact with and people I don't know and, in fact, for those who think they believe in Jesus. Eternity is a long time. In relation to eternity, we're not here for very long.
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  3. FlakeNoir
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    FlakeNoir Beta/Moderator Moderator

    I don't think "truth" can come into it. It can be a thing of faith or belief... only. Nobody alive today can tell us what is on the other side of death. It is impossible to know beyond all doubt.
    Faith, belief.... and choices... you have yours and I am (truly) happy for you, I just wish that you would allow me mine without pressure to change--for your benefit, as much as mine.
  4. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    What is your belief?
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  5. FlakeNoir
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    FlakeNoir Beta/Moderator Moderator

    My spirituality is personal to me and in the way that I won't share it with people who knock on my door, I won't be sharing it here either, sorry. I don't mean this to be offensive at all, I just wish to keep portions of my personal life a private thing.
  6. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    W
    But what if you're wrong? What if you find at the point of your death that Jesus was born of a virgin, died on the cross to pay the debt of our sins and rose again on the 3rd day and blessed us with the Holy Spirit until His return? What if, contrary to your affirmation that no one has ever died and come back from death, that Jesus Christ indeed died and came back from death to allow us eternal life? You keep saying I'm trying to pressure you to change your beliefs, I have no idea what they are, but since you say no one can know, how do you know that what you believe is true and that the gospel of Jesus Christ isn't true?
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  7. FlakeNoir
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    FlakeNoir Beta/Moderator Moderator

    I have absolutely no proof of what the 'truth' is... I have no idea who is 'right' or 'wrong'. I didn't say that I either do, or don't believe that nobody has ever died and come back.
    What I said was, nobody alive on earth today can say for certain (100%) that they know what will happen once we die.
    I am comfortable with my choices and believe that while I'm here on earth I am doing more good than harm and if at the end of my life I have chosen a path that will not lead me on to what you describe, then so be it, I accept the consequences, whatever they may be. (Please again... don't tell me what they might be, because I don't accept that you are any the wiser on what will come.)

    I may not have explained very well earlier what I find annoying/disturbing with the way you speak to me about religion. It isn't so much that you're trying to change my beliefs, it is that you are seeming to be pressuring me into believing what you believe.
    I accept the path you are taking and only ask that you do the same for me... don't grieve for me though, please.
    If you can't accept that I choose not to follow what you're preaching, then please just accept that I may not discuss it with you any more.
  8. Sundrop
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    Sundrop Out of Order

    Actually, there are 9 qualities mentioned as being the fruit of the Spirit....Paul also tells us in the rest of the verses how we should use our fruit.
    To me, this warns me not to be judgmental, or not to laud my faith or beliefs over those of others.....I'm here to do my best to be a living example. It is not for me to judge, or to condemn....that job belongs to God alone.....and for that, I am thankful

    Galatians 5:22-26
    New Century Version (NCV)

    22 But the Spirit produces the fruit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness, self-control. There is no law that says these things are wrong. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified their own sinful selves. They have given up their old selfish feelings and the evil things they wanted to do. 25 We get our new life from the Spirit, so we should follow the Spirit. 26 We must not be proud or make trouble with each other or be jealous of each other.
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  9. Sundrop
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    Sundrop Out of Order

    I think that many proclaiming Christians, tend to give Christianity a bad reputation. Sometimes, in their overzealousness to "guide others to the light",
    they lose perspective. Jesus told us to love one another....He even said this is the greatest commandment of all...that we love one another.
    Too often, Christians get caught up arguing about idols, or images, or who is wrong or right.... They are missing the point entirely.

    Ghandi once said something like this
    Jesus is ideal and wonderful, but you Christians - you are not like him.

    It gave me a lot to consider.....
  10. Ebdim9th
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    Ebdim9th A Man's Chord

    I grew up in an almost completely secular household, with intermittent ritualistic sojourns to Mass, with little or no real lasting spiritual impact... we talked a lot about other world religions but again with no real life-changing results... I read all about Greek and Roman mythology, Johnathan Livingston Seagull, dinosaurs, UFOS, In Search Of (well, I watched that, hosted by Leonard Nimoy), time-travel and alternate universes, but none of that provided a consistent direction... the weather vane spun round and round... so sure, I looked into Jesus. It's been somewhat of a subjective experience, but faith is the substance of things unseen, and the evidence of the things hoped for, contrary to the twentieth century definition that says faith is a belief that doesn't require evidence. I prefer the older definition which calls faith something that provides evidence and substance. For every answer there is another question, but I've found more than enough answers to counterbalance the questions and assure me that there are more answers to be found beyond even those. In recent years I got egotistical and arrogant, decided to do it all on my own and it's cost me my health and my sanity. I'm trying everything I can to restore my lost ground in my relationship with the Jesus Man but there are consequences to our thoughts and behaviours, and they are lasting ones... you can seek and find, and the Word will speak to you differently, that's the subjective within the objective, it's an individual will and calling... but I wouldn't belittle anyone's quest for Life and Truth, no matter how esoteric.
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  11. Moderator
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    Moderator Ms. Mod Administrator

    I'd echo what Flake has said. I have no desire to try to convert you or tell you that because my expression of spirituality is different from yours means that I'm right and you're wrong because I don't believe that. You've found what works for you and others have done the same but on a different path. It's never made sense to me that there can only be one path/religion to a spiritual life if the basic tenets each practices are the same. But then I'm personally concerned more about living my life right here and now the best I can morally and ethically and treating others the way I would like to have them treat me because it's the right thing to do, not because I'm afraid of what happens in the afterlife.
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  12. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    If there are absolutes in the real world, things that can not be argued like the natural laws we can see, why wouldn't there be absolute laws in the spiritual realm?
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  13. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    I like what you've related here. I've seen the struggle from faith to backsliding and back to faith. It's hard to watch and I know people that do it time and time again with the same disastrous results. I have a question for you. Do you feel that I'm belittling the pursuit of life and truth in my discussions with others and how do you feel about the command to spread the gospel, knowing what you believe in faith, that those who do not believe and die in that disbelief will suffer unimaginably?
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  14. Moderator
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    Moderator Ms. Mod Administrator

    There probably are but that being a follower of Jesus Christ is the only way to observe spirituality is not something I'd agree is one of them. The one absolute thing I can agree with is that we should all be doing more to follow the Golden Rule and all else falls into place when we do.
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  15. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    The point of discussing what's lost in religion when it contradicts what the bible says is reflected continually in the epistles for which Paul is responsible. If you read the bible at all you can't help but see the Apostles going back to previously established churches and asking them why they're doing things specifically forbidden by the gospel. Ghandi wasn't a Christian and his point is valid, but in the context of Christians talking to unbelievers there's no other way to spread the gospel than to say what is contained in the bible. Just as there's no other way to tell people that claim to believe in Jesus, that praying to anyone that isn't Jesus, is praying to the dead. Jesus did indeed tell us to love one another. Can you love someone and watch them rundown and not do anything because you don't want to upset them by pulling them out of the way, whether or not they see a problem? People that do believe in Jesus aren't in much less trouble than those who don't believe in Jesus according to the bible. The bible says, Many are called but few are chosen. That's not talking about just sinners. Many will say Lord Lord but Jesus will say He doesn't know them. There is right and wrong, the bible is the guide. I'm not so worried about being right or wrong, but I'm very concerned with people suffering for all eternity. I've been warned by the bible, I'm not going to be appreciated for spreading the gospel, I will be hated but they hated Jesus first. So to love one another is to care for them and their lives now as well as their eternal lives. How can you claim to love someone if you're willing to let them not hear about the good news of Jesus Christ, or let someone doing something as a believer that is forbidden by the very gospel they claim to live by?
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  16. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    Golden rule as in: Do unto others as you wish they would do unto you? That sounds like a good place for anyone to start, and a good place to return to. I know I continually need a reminder.
  17. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    I'm sorry but you can't order me to not grieve for you, I will. I fully respect your right to believe in what you want to believe, that's a God given right. I think that if you continue to seek truth that you will find it. I will also continue to do so on a daily basis. I wish you the best.
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  18. Ebdim9th
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    Ebdim9th A Man's Chord

    So far your zealous arguments haven't been insulting, and that's the main thing about not belittling others, how strenuously you might disagree with them. There's an old saying, not in the Bible of course, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Not that anyone here is a horse, or the least bit horse-like. I look to discern how much time I have with others to let my light so shine toward them. I believe that I'll be given understanding as to how much time I have with each person, a little or a lot. In the end, each individual either sees God's Hand working in their lives and are convinced, or they do not. Hell might be a real place, but no threat of it can ever make that illumination happen any faster or slower than the time it will simply take to strive with each person at the pace at which they move. God even made them that way, apart from any fallen nature. Some are deliberative and step in late in the game, some jump right in at the ground level. I need patience and long-suffering for myself, so how much more for everyone else around me that I come into contact with?
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  19. Sundrop
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    Sundrop Out of Order

    Believe me, I have read the Bible many times. And while I'm not a scholar, I have a pretty good understanding. I know what I know and I know what I believe. My mind has been messed with by a much more fanatical person and in more ways than you can even imagine.....and I still know what I know and believe what I believe....because I have faith.
    I cannot recall one time where Jesus ever told his followers to go out shouting hot hell and brimstone to unbelievers....I do recall his instructions that if no one wanted to hear it, they were to shake the dust from their sandals and move on. Many people who are zealous for winning the so called lost to Christ often recite John 3:16. You have it memorized, I'm sure. But John 3:17 is just as important.
    Paul had a lot to say, didn't he? I think his heart was probably in the right place, but you cannot equate his teaching and understanding with that of Jesus. After all, Paul was just a man....one more fallible human being trying to do what he thought was for the good of others.
    Paul didn't want women serving as deacons in the church....he didn't even want women to speak in church. While this was Paul's personal preference, Jesus never told him to make that rule. Think about it.....Who did the risen Jesus appear to first?...it was Mary. Mary was also in the upper room when Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into the 11 remaining disciples. My church encourages women to serve as deacons, and in the past, even I, a twice divorced woman have served both on the deacon body and as a leader for 6 years....they even asked me to teach the high school Sunday school class, which I did for over 10 years.
    It is difficult to watch someone you love literally unwind their own fate....and yet, Jesus allowed Judas to fall to his own free will.
    No one hates you for speaking of your beliefs....I just personally find the manner in which you're doing it off putting....I also tend to tune out preachers that yell, foam at the mouth, and speak in tongues....It ain't my thing.
    I love people because they're people.....it's that simple. I choose to live and lead by example rather than take the hell and brimstone approach.
    You're right....Ghandi was not a Christian.....but he had opportunity to observe the actions of people who claimed to be.....I wonder why he didn't get a better impression of Christians?
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2014
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  20. VampireLily
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    VampireLily Vampire Goddess & General P.I.T.A

    That was gorgeous.... what an amazing heart you have, Sundrop....
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