On the 8th Day He said... Here's a gun and a steak!

Discussion in 'Politics' started by hossenpepper, Mar 12, 2014.

  1. Walter Oobleck
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    Walter Oobleck keeps coming back...or going, and going, and going

    I think you're off your rocker, Hoss. You are one-hundred percent incorrect and always will be. He said thou mayest. There is no fear in love.
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  2. Shasta
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    Shasta On his shell he holds the earth.

    What part is he incorrect on, pray tell? I'd pay good money to see where it says in the bible that we have any rights that are listed in the Bill of Rights. They were completely pulled out of the minds of our forefathers and are certainly not ordained by god.
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  3. prufrock21
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    prufrock21 Well-Known Member

    Bullets for Jehovah, shotgun saints, the Bible and buckshot, the .45-calibre tabernacle, the crucified rifleman ... What will they think of next?
  4. Walter Oobleck
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    Walter Oobleck keeps coming back...or going, and going, and going

    Shasta, Hoss was incorrect on ALL of it, sadly...alas. He knows this. We're communicating.

    Articles I and X of the Constitution can be traced directly to the First Commandment. Articles IV and VI...to the Ninth Commandment. The Sixth, Eighth and Tenth Commandments are all at work in Articles III and V.

    Again, He said thou mayest. A kind of liberty that government can neither provide nor protect, ultimately. But then it is all smoke and mirrors and again, you know this.
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  5. Neesy
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    Neesy #1 fan (Annie Wilkes cousin) 1st cousin Mom's side

    How bout the "Church of the Hot Brass Casings"? I had an old boyfriend who said that was the church he believed in
  6. Chuggs
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    Chuggs Well-Known Member

    I've got zero problems with the gun raffles in the church, and they do background checks, which is a plus. I would like to see them raffling at least some of the bibles though.

    Argue all you want about whether or not God says that we have a right to guns or not. The government says we do, therefor we do. Taking them away would be quite a bloody mess, IMO.
  7. GNTLGNT
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    GNTLGNT Idiot in Situ and Unholy Devourer of Cookies

    ...oh this is SO rich, I put on 15 pounds...
    [​IMG]
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  8. Lisey Landon
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    Lisey Landon Well-Known Member

    Now we're talking!
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  9. Grandpa
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    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    Well, I've heard lots of commotion about the government giving away condoms. About Warren Buffet and Intuit giving away a billion dollars to the person who can get the NCAA b-ball brackets 100% correct. Really, if you have behavior that seems irrational or contraindicated to the person or group (and I would include churches giving away guns as part of that), it's gonna get noticed. d

    And no, we have no rights other than what we afford ourselves and each other through the conventions of society. Rights, like mathematics, like writing, is a human invention.
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  10. DiO'Bolic
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    DiO'Bolic Simply Stated

    My small poor church tried a donated gun auction recently to raise funds for some badly needed repairs. But it didn’t bring in much money.

    I offered to do the painting as my donation .

    The pastor gave me the money for the paint. When I returned, I said that it wasn't enough paint.

    The pastor said, "It's all we have, add some water to thin it down". So I did.

    A short while later I returned to the pastor and said, "It's still not going to be enough".

    The pastor told me to add more water and thin it down some more.

    So I did. After I finished I looked up to the sky and said "Crap, here comes a rain cloud." The rain washed the paint off the church.

    The pastor stood out, eyes toward heaven, and cried "Oh God, what am I to do?"

    A deep voice came out of heaven and said, "Repaint and thin no more".

    :)
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  11. prufrock21
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    prufrock21 Well-Known Member

    Sounds New Age. I like it.
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  12. hossenpepper
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    hossenpepper Keeper of Octopus Volcano

    HE did? You were there and HE told you? It's sad when someone bases so much of themselves, to the point of discounting true understanding, on something they simply seem to not understand at all. But that is OK. Ignorance isn't a crime. To keep it in one's life due to recalcitrant immaturity of analysis, well that's another thing. But none of us are perfect. I will explain this more simply so it's more easily understood, as the broad concept of what a"right" is as defined by reality and existence versus what a "right" is a defined by the human society is somewhat complex and requires objective logic versus dogmatic political nonsense. I understand talk radio and the neocon club immediately discounts something if it isn't a few lines. If it isn't, it's suspect liberal evil. Unfortunately some things require context. Sorry about that. Reality, etc., and all...

    Let's just assume the biblical stories are true for a second. God created a perfect place OF GOD that did not have sin or strife or violence. Guns weren't even a concept in that place. The idea of "stand your ground" or "personal protection" were not even a concept there because they weren't needed. But that didn't last did it? The story tells us of a serpent and choices made. After that the garden was "poisoned", existence was "poisoned" and the world became of MAN and was no longer the reflection of God's perfection. At that point the world was MAN'S and the things that came from MAN were of MAN. Influenced, created, etc, by God, yes, but now perverted by the imperfection of the now "poisoned" human soul. Able to be saved? Yes. but God's perfection any more? NO.

    The real point of the story of the fall of Adam and Eve is to make one understand the imperfection of the human. And to understand that like all things in creation, we are made as our kind and unto our own kind. In other words, because I know how obviously befuddling all of these basic premises have been, people do what people do because they are people. Monkeys act as monkeys, ants act as ants, penguins act as penguins. And what do these life forms create? Well, what humans, or monkey or ants or penguins create. They are what they are. The story of the scorpion comes to mind. Why does it sting? It's a scorpion, that's why. I think the point is made.

    So then are these concepts of and by humans delivered to us from God? Does the bible say we are ordained with personal protection? Is it inherently ingrained in us that we have the ordained right and duty to speak what we think? Well certainly the forefathers thought of this concept as having some foundation for the ideal of our governmental structure, but in the end what does that truly do? Define what was already understood to be universal law or simply create the will of men to define what works as as close to fair and right as can be created by us and unto ourselves via definition of these things or state the will of God? In our case, of course we call these documented definitions the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. But even these basic documents require constant review and revision in the form of the US Codes and court decisions to define the subtleties of each basic ideal defined. Why is this imperfection present? And there we have hit the crucial point.

    It's imperfect because we created it. We as a species, creation or however you choose to define humans, are imperfect. Now WHY that is, whether you believe it's the biblical stories, or evolution or Lord Xenu or whatever you have faith in or subscribe to, in the end really doesn't matter. What does matter is that ANY of those philosophies have one thing in common: people are people. Humans do what humans do and that is always imperfect and always a creation of us. As such, the things we have defined amongst ourselves via the agreement and social contract we all have as Americans or whatever particular society in which you live are defined FOR that society. For instance, did God ordain that we should label what ingredients are in products? Or did we come up with that because that is a potential problem for humans? Did our experience say that for the purposes of us as humans, we need this, or did the bible tell us so? There is an argument to say that perhaps there are cues from biblical truth for many things, but many things don't really have anything to do with biblical truth per se and instead are about things of humans and for humans.

    Again, an ordained truth that was guaranteed to you by God is how people try to use the term "rights" and I fully reject that you are guaranteed anything in this life, except that at some point your physical body will cease to work and then decompose to the materials from which it is composed, because that is the truth. Even if that fact is true because the devil is holding some societies hostage and not allow them to give their citizens these, as you feel, heavenly ordained armaments and unquestionable expectation of personal protection, the net effect is the same. You aren't guaranteed anything. Except , again, that your body will stop functioning and decompose some day. The clearing at the end of the path is the one and only place that we are all going without question. Everything else in existence is only a "maybe." If you don't understand and accept that, so be it. No one can tell you what to think.

    Listen, I am not even saying we shouldn't be able to protect ourselves. I am not saying we shouldn't have guns. I am not saying we shouldn't adjudicate our only societal parameters. That is what humans do and so do all other living things on this planet. That is a natural progression of things. But again, if you look at this biblically, these conventions which we attempt to define are inherently human and flawed because we are humans and inherently flawed. Even a simple thing like the concept of right and wrong is defined in a wildly different way from one person to the next. But the concept of the only thing you can count on to take place is your death, pervades all societies, regardless of the individual, privileges or freedoms that society affords its citizens. The problem you and most neocons have with this is that you have a very hard time seeing that the government should be little more than the military. Within that context, then all other things aren't due to the government, it's just because it is! No way could the documents be the sole reason why we can own guns, that is of God! Yes, of God is this man made for man's purposes only "thing" that is only required in the first place becasue we soiled our own existences in the garden. NOT!!!!! That is so completely wrong!!! There is no logical path that gets you to that point, religious or not. You simply cannot logic this out and come to your conclusion. Otherwise, why the hell did the forefathers even define a government in the first place, beyond the military? Why did they even define these things and "rights' if they were already universal truth? Writing down a concept of God doesn't suddenly make it become real. It's true regardless of whether a man writes it down to define it or not, isn't it? It's the height of arrogance to think that for thousands of years before America came along, everyone else was just going against the universal truths.

    Agree or don't. I couldn't care less beyond making sure your illogical fallacious viewpoints are cancelled out by something that actually is based in a sensible analysis of these philosophical ideals.

    Remember Willy Wonka? The everlasting gobstopper? You need the everlasting burrito. :)
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
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  13. hossenpepper
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    hossenpepper Keeper of Octopus Volcano

    :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: I altered your original text to drive that point home for some that are confused here....

    Right, because when, to you, the gubmint is evil, you can't let that be the source of your protection or anything else. If it was all gone, neocons would be able to hold it all together by themselves against the barbarian hordes! It does beg the question of how one can think the government is so evil and inept, yet have no qualms with them having enough weapons to destroy the earth in about 2 minutes. Also the gubmint is capable of vast complex conspiracy to the point they control every piece of input that we get and are thus fooled (not them, just us that don't see their "truths") into negating our own necessity, yet they are the bumbling fools who can't run a healthcare program. The logical fallacy that is the conservative platform is good for a laugh, though.
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  14. hossenpepper
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    hossenpepper Keeper of Octopus Volcano

    Oh I am not debating that. I agree. That is the law so that is the law. It's been SCOTUS tested and approved. I don't have a problem dropping something beyond a philosophical discussion once it's been through that test of approval. I mean yeah, maybe it's not the best idea to let everyone have guns. You know, there will be problems, but then again, should we throw out the baby with the bathwater? Nah, just continue to understand the purpose and refine things as needed as new societal challenges in that context arise.

    Ya know, like the attitude the neocons have towards things that are law and have been tested and aren't perfect, but have a purpose. Like the healthcare law, for instance.

    Oh, wait... D'oH!!!!
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  15. jchanic
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    jchanic Well-Known Member

    <Groan>

    John
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