Question regarding "It" *SPOILERS*

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Walter Oobleck

keeps coming back...or going, and going, and going
Mar 6, 2013
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Pennywise believes itself to be one of only two cosmic beings (itself and the Turtle). Sometimes Pennywise suspects (and both enraged and frightened by the thought) that there might be another being, i.e. the Other. In short, if my theory is true, some of the Deadlights pass the barrier and hurtle toward a level of the Tower (reality) and leaves the absolute insanity behind. It perceives itself in relation to everything else. It gains a personality of a sort, however self centered and evil. This creature "thinks therefore it is" as opposed to simply being a cosmic amoeba of evil outside energy without a driving mind behind it. This new creature evolves and is further defined by its stay in Derry. It takes on constant forms, not having any of its own, from the minds and notions of people it feeds upon.

Reminds me of a catfish in a rocker who told Ralph shape-changing is a time-honored custom in Derry although when Ralph asked about another, he sensed momentary puzzlement on that scaly face. I've got a theory, too, and it's a trip considering all that has transpired. Maybe that'd be a question I'd ask Stephen King if I was ever afforded the opportunity and saying more is a kind of spoiler. Even though I'd posted the idea(s) in the past...but then, I don't recall much in the way of feedback, yay or nay, or even a third-force response, otherwise.

And too, reminded again of a line from one of MacDonad's stories, Where is Janice Gantry? MacDonald had a way of coming out with a line of thought that seemed to come outta right field and this one wasn't much different:
“there is one demon loose upon the world who spends all his infinite time and energy on the devising of all the vicious little coincidences which confound mankind. his specialty is to confront the unwary with coincidences so eerie, so obviously planned by a malevolent intelligence, that time itself comes to a full stop and his victim stands transfixed by a conviction of unreality, while in infra-space, the demon hugs his hairy belly, kicks his hooves in the air, rolling and gasping with silent laughter.”
The quote should not be taken to imply I've assigned a goodness or a badness to something other than the random or the purpose or what have you. If things are no longer black and white, or if black is white and white is black, you have to ask yourself...or at least I do...maybe we haven't defined all that is. Maybe an angel got bored?
 

Robert Gray

Well-Known Member
First off I'd like to say: wow amazing post Robert! You put a perspective on it that I hadn't thought to try. You must dig deep down into the depths of the book and look for every scrap of information.

That was a very nice thing to say, but it is probably far too generous. I've read the book many times. It is one of my favorites, and by that I mean of fiction overall (not just Mr. King's work). I am likely to read it a good many more times before I reach the clearing at the end of the path. I'd love to claim I'm digging deep, but that would imply too much scholarship on my part. I attribute any insights I have (correct or incorrect) to the clarity of the writing and the poignancy of the story.

Or you're just a very smart guy who can pick up on that sort of thing. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. Also I'd like to point out on a sort of unrelated note that Grey's post is #19(having come from reading the DT series recently I got a kick out of that!) and back ON topic I'd also like to say I can agree with your theory on Pennywise's own creation from humanity. Even that small one in Derry helped form a consciousness and It attached itself to it because it knew it could feed on that. The Deadlights might find its way into another level of the Tower but, as far as Pennywise goes, he is dead.

I'm just another Constant Reader, so smart enough to pick good books perhaps but anything more than that is just conjecture. The outside evil, manifested as the Deadlights, has crept into many levels of the Tower. It seems to thrive in the nooks and crannies between levels (i.e. between worlds) too. In every case, the Tower (reality) helps give form to the formless. The madness and outside evil is as much a product of an individual level of the Tower as it is of the outer darkness. I suspect that is as it should be. While it risks dabbling in other books, we must not forget Mordred, who is an avatar of this very idea. He is a child of two fathers and unique. We must remember that pure evil is as "innocent" as pure good. It takes some gray area to tincture the brew. It takes some homegrown sense of right and wrong from the many levels of the tower to make the outside, amoral madness truly evil. After all, there is no night without the day. The road to heaven is made interesting only by demons along the way. It bears noting that between outside and internal evil, it is always inner evil that we find most repugnant. Outside evil can be more terrifying because of the alien nature of it, but that also acts as a barrier to our understanding and to a degree our disgust. It is hard on some level for us to blame a shark for eating people. We fear it but that isn't the same as how we fear and revile another human being that does the same thing.

This is a very interesting topic to say the least. I'd love to get into a discussion about the Macroverse sometime, and talk more in deep about The Turtle and The Deadlights. Probably not on this particular forum post but maybe in another! Not sure where that'd go under though. Thanks again Mr Grey!

I agree. It is interesting. We will have to talk more in this thread and others.
 

Neesy

#1 fan (Annie Wilkes cousin) 1st cousin Mom's side
May 24, 2012
61,289
239,271
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
That was a very nice thing to say, but it is probably far too generous. I've read the book many times. It is one of my favorites, and by that I mean of fiction overall (not just Mr. King's work). I am likely to read it a good many more times before I reach the clearing at the end of the path. I'd love to claim I'm digging deep, but that would imply too much scholarship on my part. I attribute any insights I have (correct or incorrect) to the clarity of the writing and the poignancy of the story.



I'm just another Constant Reader, so smart enough to pick good books perhaps but anything more than that is just conjecture. The outside evil, manifested as the Deadlights, has crept into many levels of the Tower. It seems to thrive in the nooks and crannies between levels (i.e. between worlds) too. In every case, the Tower (reality) helps give form to the formless. The madness and outside evil is as much a product of an individual level of the Tower as it is of the outer darkness. I suspect that is as it should be. While it risks dabbling in other books, we must not forget Mordred, who is an avatar of this very idea. He is a child of two fathers and unique. We must remember that pure evil is as "innocent" as pure good. It takes some gray area to tincture the brew. It takes some homegrown sense of right and wrong from the many levels of the tower to make the outside, amoral madness truly evil. After all, there is no night without the day. The road to heaven is made interesting only by demons along the way. It bears noting that between outside and internal evil, it is always inner evil that we find most repugnant. Outside evil can be more terrifying because of the alien nature of it, but that also acts as a barrier to our understanding and to a degree our disgust. It is hard on some level for us to blame a shark for eating people. We fear it but that isn't the same as how we fear and revile another human being that does the same thing.



I agree. It is interesting. We will have to talk more in this thread and others.
Coming from a guy who lives in "Derry" I would have to say:

Watch out for the sewers while you are out and about on your daily walk, Robert!
 

Neesy

#1 fan (Annie Wilkes cousin) 1st cousin Mom's side
May 24, 2012
61,289
239,271
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Derry sewers suck.
It is funny - Andy is hanging about while I am on the computer. I just clicked on your post as he was walking behind my chair and read out loud what you said and who you are.

He said "Butthead" and then chuckled. He obviously misunderstood when I said "Blunthead"

:chuncky::facepalm_smiley::hmm::m_whatwhat:
 

masterjedi343

Member
Jul 20, 2013
17
37
I'd love to get into that debate Robert! Would be fun to delve deeper into the minds of The Deadlights and The Turtle(and possibly Gan). But on the risk of also going into that same story, Mordred is a very interesting case, and I'll just say this; he was a result of his fathers and really had no choice in what he did. Thus Pennywise also had the similar problem. While he was around for millions of years before Derry, and what he did between then and when Derry was founded, I have no idea, and we will probably never find out but when Derry was founded? He fed on the emotions of the people(another mirror of TDT series and someone you probably know Grey), and grew into the monster we know and love. While I cannot feel sympathy for Pennywise, as I do with Mordred, Pennywise was just picking up on the vibes and did things accordingly. If that makes sense? He thought it was the way people did things and took over Derry as his own, made it apart of himself. Which I guess I already said before. Sorry if I repeated myself.

Also could it be that The Deadlights and The Todash Darkness are similar things? I mean in the sense of the madness bit. The Todash is supposed to be the darkness between the worlds(or levels of the Tower?) so perhaps the Todash is an extension of The Deadlights? I dunno, just throwing theories out there. It's late so I get like this haha.
 
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Boni

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2008
369
335
As long as there are evil in the world, Pennywise forever will live.

By the way, since Stephen said that he does not plan to write a sequel, and no new clown attacks were described in his other books, I can only imagine that the "Pennywise lives" message in Dreamcatcher was just a kid's prank, or a psycho's who really loved Penny's work.
 

Robert Gray

Well-Known Member
As long as there are evil in the world, Pennywise forever will live.

By the way, since Stephen said that he does not plan to write a sequel, and no new clown attacks were described in his other books, I can only imagine that the "Pennywise lives" message in Dreamcatcher was just a kid's prank, or a psycho's who really loved Penny's work.

I think this is quite possible. The monster sometimes known as Pennywise pervaded Derry since it was founded and filled the empty places in people as well as geography. When saturating, outside evil was removed I've little doubt that some of the people it touched (and perhaps even liked its touch) were left floundering. I've often thought that just as Shelob had Gollum/Smeagol slavishly adoring her in the darkness (for what she represented) that there must have been some (or at least one) insane denizen of Derry that knew of Pennywise on a more direct level and insanely loved It.

There are idiots today who still paint Nazi symbols on walls and insist that Hitler lives too. I consider these a more insane and offensive versions of the people who insist that Elvis still walks among us sneaking triple decker burgers on the hidden highways of America.
 

muskrat

Dis-Member
Nov 8, 2010
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Under your bed
You have to remember that Pennywise (or simply It) existed as a unique monster, however massive, within Derry's level of the Tower. That monster was tied to a specific reality. The force (the outside evil) sprang from the Deadlights, which are outside of everything else. In short, the Deadlights continue to twinkle and pulse in unending madness, but on the level of the Tower in which Derry resides, the unique avatar of that energy is dead. You have to understand that we are talking metaphysics here. What is more we are talking cosmology and "fhysics," i.e. fiction-physics here. I will, for the sake of simplicity, refer to It as Pennywise for the rest of this post to avoid any confusion with my using it as the pronoun versus It the monster.

I want you to think back to the Ritual of Chüd. When Pennywise is taking Bill's essense (soul) toward the Deadlights, it is to cast him forever outside and remove the threat Bill represents. There is, without a doubt, a bit of vindictiveness there too. Pennywise taunts and talks to Bill as they hurtle through the darkness. Pennywise comments that they might as well talk "while they still can" because the closer Pennywise gets to the Deadlights, the more unintelligible it becomes. This is because as Pennywise returns to the source, it is somewhat absorbed back into the whole. Sentience as we know it is transformed into madness. This seems to imply that the sentient thought, motivations, and even character of Pennywise were born (or reflected) by the level of the Tower to which it came. In a way Pennywise does not exist as a unique entity within the Deadlights. Pennywise only exists when that energy manifested itself on that level of the Tower, i.e. in Derry. It would appear that the great barrier that holds the Deadlights outside has small holes through which the Deadlights pour out. That light doesn't belong. It has no form of its own. It has no real logic of its own. It is madness. It is wrong. It is outside evil. What does light do? It reflects off things. Pennywise, at least as we understand him, was born of two titanic forces, the Deadlights and the Tower upon which that light fell.

This theory, and as it is my own conjecture I can call it nothing else, seems to work with the cosmology that is revealed directly within the book itself. We get a brief glimpse into the mind of Pennywise. This cosmic force of unmaking is enormous beyond the scope of human imagination. Pennywise believes itself to be one of only two cosmic beings (itself and the Turtle). Sometimes Pennywise suspects (and both enraged and frightened by the thought) that there might be another being, i.e. the Other. In short, if my theory is true, some of the Deadlights pass the barrier and hurtle toward a level of the Tower (reality) and leaves the absolute insanity behind. It perceives itself in relation to everything else. It gains a personality of a sort, however self centered and evil. This creature "thinks therefore it is" as opposed to simply being a cosmic amoeba of evil outside energy without a driving mind behind it. This new creature evolves and is further defined by its stay in Derry. It takes on constant forms, not having any of its own, from the minds and notions of people it feeds upon. While it is somewhat horrific to consider, the full shape and style of Pennywise's evil comes from us. It eats people because we think it is supposed to do so. The nature of its cruelty is a reflection of our own. It is the ultimate outsider and yet the application of its evil is merely a mimicry of our own. It cannot create, only copy. Mostly it just destroys because it is easier to destroy than create. Most frightening of all, Pennywise by its long attendance in reality, is taking on the slow but sure ability to create. It has taken countless centuries but it has finally come due. Pennywise will become both mother and father to a brood. This too, I would argue, it got from us. Light reflects and as we reproduce and grow, Pennywise has through its ability to mimic managed the feat as well.

From a metaphysical point of view, the Losers sealed that specific breach from the Deadlights to their level of the Tower when they killed Pennywise. That isn't to say that living, outside evil won't ooze in again, but that unique, specific manifestation is forever lost. This is because it was like any of us, created and colored by reality in which it came into being and the time it spent there. Pennywise didn't exist as Pennywise in the Deadlights and thus Pennywise can't just be replicated by the Deadlights again. The Deadlights needs us to build the perfect beast. Times change and should that light fall upon us again, it a very different monster will arise.

Wow. Somebody buy this guy a beer.

You're the man, Bob. You're like the E. Nelson Bridwell of the SKuniverse. Bravo.