Tensions Rise...

Discussion in 'Politics' started by CriticAndProud, Sep 2, 2014.

  1. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    From NPR:

    "...Gen. Philip Breedlove, NATO's supreme allied commander in Europe, said the allied forces are facing a situation they never thought they would see again in the region. 'A nation has massed military force on a border, a recognized border. It crossed that internationally recognized border, and annexed at the point of a gun a portion of another sovereign nation,' Breedlove said. 'We thought that kind of thing was over in Europe, and so NATO now has to consider what does this mean.'"

    I so agree with this, and it's so sad. Military expansionism was hoped to be done. The Eastern and Western countries were becoming economically intertwined. Free travel across borders. Germany, France, and England all in the same union! Just a great potential for peace. With the continual and eternal exception of the Middle East, and pockets like Chechnya, it seemed that sovereign stability of the various regions was within grasp.

    But... no. Nationalism and the quest for ever more influence and real estate wends its inevitable way. It's a lot more subtle this time. No big blitzkrieg-style invasions. Destabilization, denying a sovereignty that does in fact exist, then support the destabilization militarily, and then try to make peace.

    As a Moscow-based journalist said, it's like being an arsonist and a firefighter. You start the fire, then show up to claim that you want to put it out, and try to collect the insurance money afterwards.

    Heavy sigh. When you think that human nature, at least in some parts of the world, is changing for the better, that citizens have a chance of being better served, that national borders are respected, the old ways rear their ugly heads.
     
  2. DiO'Bolic

    DiO'Bolic Mr. Man

    I don’t quite understand the optimism. Look at war deaths and genocide from the 20th century until today. We just keep finding more reasons and better means to kill each other off.
     
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  3. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    Not optimism as much as observation, and pretty much focused on the Euro-Russian theater as it developed from the 1980s. With the breakup of the Soviet Union, the advent of the EU, and democratization and increased capitalism, it seemed like the traditional major war flashpoints of European countries invading each other, and the looming of the Iron Curtain, were looking like they could become increasingly irrelevant. It looked like economic interdependence might trump regional jealousies and power grabs.

    Ah, well. Human nature takes over. It only takes one ill-mannered guest to spoil a party.
     
  4. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Active Member

    This is well-known Yugoslavia scenario. When under pretext of peacemaking they (NATO) were bombarding Belgrad and this is in the end of XXth century in the middle of Europe! How is it? Now there's no Yugoslavia though there's the biggest base of NATO in the middle of Europe. The same damn thing there was in Libya then...and then in Syria... now in Ukraine.
     
  5. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    I'll just note that we're not talking about Yugoslavia, and Yugoslavia is not comparable. Bombing to get war criminals to retreat is not the same as invading another nation to grab its real estate. Accepting a country's application to join an alliance is not the same as invading another nation to grab its real estate. Libya and Syria are part of a much larger fractious set of circumstance (see: "Arab Spring") in that unhappy region, and yeah, NATO is sure getting a lot out of those scraps. Yeesh.

    And now, Mr. Ace, with all due respect, and I mean that most sincerely, I'll once again withdraw from our dialogue. I like to debate and discuss with friends here such as DiO and Hoss, as well as socialize with them in other forums, and that's not what this is at all. I gain no particular pleasure in butting heads with an apparent national propagandist who only shows up for one issue. I'm happy to discuss and learn from people from other countries, including Russia, about their views, but I'm not so keen on being subject to proselytizing. Иметь хороший день.
     
  6. GNTLGNT

    GNTLGNT Idiot in Situ and Unholy Devourer of Cookies

    ...well said Gpa-and much more diplomatically than what I was about to post...
     
  7. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Active Member

    All that Yugoslavia conflict was artificially raised and ignited by the war hawks of NATO. Many of those so called war crimes of serbs were fabricated as we've known afterwards. But Belgrad was attacked in order to rip country apart and build the biggest Europian NATO base in Kosovo. So yes, it's the same, as said that journalist "You start the fire, then show up to claim that you want to put it out, and try to collect the insurance money afterwards."
    Comon, what's right has NATO to bombard the sovereign country? Who's gave such privilege to NATO? UN? No, NATO did it by its wish. How is that?
    Yeah right. And for that one may bring coup d'etat like Maidan? Remember, from whose hands was feeding the opposition of Yanukovich? Nuland, McCain, etc. Again the same thing. Let's be consecutive: Maidan was first then a country's application to join an alliance. But who's made Maidan? Who was the sponsor and mastermind of it?

    Brilliant. Indeed "you start the fire, then show up to claim that you want to put it out, and try to collect the insurance money afterwards."
    Don't you understand if the West&NATO wouldn't help those rebels/terrorists then Gaddaffi would squash them easily and in Libya would be peace and order. But now Libya torn apart and there's the civil war and when it ends god knows. The same with Ukraine but now terrorists are sitting in Kiev and they have Washigton back up.

    Well, as you wish.
     
  8. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Active Member

    I've told you:
    EC admits Barroso's words on phone talks with Putin were made public out of context - News - Politics - Russian Radio
    The European Commission has admitted that the media reports on the telephone call of European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso with Russian President Vladimir Putin in which the Russian leader allegedly talked of “taking Kiev in two weeks,” were made public out of context.
    Read more: EC admits Barroso's words on phone talks with Putin were made public out of context - News - Politics - Russian Radio
     
  9. Walter Oobleck

    Walter Oobleck keeps coming back...or going, and going, and going

    How are relations between China and Russia? Is Moscow Beijing's junior partner now? Are relations between Russia and China better than relations between the U.S.A. and either of the two countries? Since the U.S. plays for the duration of an election cycle, what might be the long-term effects of that policy regards Russia & China? Since the U.S.A. plays for the duration of the election cycle and our media is nothing more than an establishment media, what do we believe? Kissinger, I believe, thought that relations between the U.S.A. and either Russia and China should be better than relations between the Tiger and the Bear. Not so today. Who knows what the Chinese desire, but they've already bypassed the dollar that will one day no longer be the world currency and then where will the election cycles take us?
     
  10. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Active Member

    The relations between China and Russia are making better because of those santions wich USA put on Russia. The new big gas pipe "Force of Sibеria" is building now in order to sell gas into China as well as in Europe now. I think China is realizes if the USA may put sanctions on Russia what would stop them to put sanctions on Cnina in the future if they would want/need. So I'd say Cnina is a strategical partner of Russia, almost an ally. And yes, economics of Cnina is growing so quickly.
     
  11. DiO'Bolic

    DiO'Bolic Mr. Man

    That story hasn’t been much on the radar here in the west. And unfortunately with Putin dismantling the country’s media, in a few short years eliminating virtually every obstacle and silencing every opposing voice, and driving political rivals and critics into exile or worse, those in the international community have a tendency to take most anything that comes out of the Russian media these days with a grain of salt. That is the pitfall of reports coming out of a government controlled media... in as even if reports are valid, they always seem suspect.
     
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  12. hossenpepper

    hossenpepper Keeper of Octopus Volcano

    :rofl: I knew you'd be here pretty quick with some more baseless and debunked propaganda, but this is so completely ridiculous to say it's beyond childish. Yeah, Putin isn't a boaster, WTFever dude...
    [​IMG]
    Nope, that isn't a boastful, arrogant man. What world leader does this kind of crap? It's ridiculous, boastful and an attempt to show he's some "big man". If Bush or any of our presidents did this, I'm sure the Russian people would say "Oh look, what a humble man he is." Bullsh!t!!!!!
     
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  13. hossenpepper

    hossenpepper Keeper of Octopus Volcano

    SIGH........................... IT DOESN'T MATTER?????!!!!!??!?!?!?!?!!? It's the ENTIRE PREMISE of your propaganda based argument here on the SKMB... That Ukranians are REALLY Russians so there is nothing wrong with Russia coming to save it from "Non-Russians".

    The entire world has a common history and interests. That certainly doesn't justify anything the US does in your eyes, so why does it justify what your country does? Complete and utter hypocrisy.
     
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  14. hossenpepper

    hossenpepper Keeper of Octopus Volcano

    Ahhh, but "eye for an eye" was trumped with "turn the other cheek", wasn't it? :)
     
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  15. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Active Member

    Not quite. Not from "Non-Russians". From nationalists wich hate Russians and they think that Russia is the spring of all their troubles. Some of their slogans:"Москаляку на гіляку!" (Moskal on the gallow. "Moskal" - the scornful nickname of a russian), "Москалів – на ножі" (Moskals on the knives), "кто не скачет тот москаль" (The one who doesn't jump is Moskal) and so on. When I said about today's "Ukraine" as anti-Russia I meant it. Look here's their today's education of children:

    The children are shouting: "Russians on the gallow" This is anti-Russia. They've soaked up with the hatred to Russia from childhood.
    Here's how they had jumping on Maidan:


    Alas, Russia's not come to save people of Donbass (though should be) - but they are doing it for themselves.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2014
  16. GNTLGNT

    GNTLGNT Idiot in Situ and Unholy Devourer of Cookies

    ...not in my world view...all turning the other cheek does these days-is get you slapped on it too...
     
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  17. Kurben

    Kurben Well-Known Member

    When it comes to that swedish vikings once ruled in Kiev but are not trying to say that is swedish country. So sweden also has common history. A very slippery term. It depends on how far back you are willing to go. And who is going to decide that?
     
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  18. skimom2

    skimom2 Just moseyin' through...

    He's playing politics the Russian way, Hoss. We claim to value intelligence or 'character' (don't get me started on that now meaningless word), they value strength. One thing I can say, though: if they say they'll do something, they will. No backing and filing, no empty threats. To a Russian, it's not boasting to say what you will do (or demonstrating what you are physically); the boast is in saying you'll do something and then punking out. Notice that he didn't say, "We WILL take Kiev in two weeks" (though he easily could). He said "We CAN take Kiev in two weeks." Of course it's a threat, but it leaves him a doorway out. In some ways, the Russian way of playing politics makes a lot more sense than ours. If a Russian says he WILL do something, he will. No threat; FACT (or he'll die trying). We lose so much face with the East with our endless 'boasting' (making empty threats).
     
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  19. skimom2

    skimom2 Just moseyin' through...

    images.jpeg images-1.jpeg
     
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  20. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Active Member

    Are you trying to say that is the same and comparable: swedish vikings and common history of Ukraine and Russia?
    O.k. let's see the Ukraine as we know it, in todasy's borderlines was formed during the USSR times by Lenin (who gave Donbass to Ukraine) and Stalin (who joined the Western part of Ukraine to Kiev) + Crimea, a present from Khrushev, all cities of the Eastern Ukraine were built by Russia in the times of Russian Empire. We have one origin - Kiev's Rus. The most part of population of Ukraine speak in russian. This is brotherly people to us (russians), in fact, we are one people. And don't forget about our common recent past when we all live in one country - the USSR. And you say vikings... Ukraine is not a nation in vacuum for Russia it's the most brotherly people to russians.
     

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