The situation in Ukraine

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Out of Order, Feb 27, 2014.

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  1. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Active Member

    Grandpa, look at the map: http://www.anti-nato.com/#map
    You say that some countries voluntarily joined to NATO, o.k. may be, but you see, there are NATO bases in Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. (they ain't members of Allianse). Don't you see, that's NATO's relentlessly moving into the East? Оne way or another, by joining or conquering countries, NATO set up their bases in the East. Now the question is will be or not NATO bases in Ukraine and Georgia. If Putin would just sit with crossed arms, then NATO would be in Crimea already now. So, yes, the annexation of Crimea is the mesure of self-defense for Russia. Crimea is the key to Russian defense. Russia coludn't let lose it.And yes, formally Crimea, was the part of another country, but in fact it was always stayed a russian territory. The majore part of population are russians, the main language is Russian, etc. So it's not exactly annexation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
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  2. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Active Member

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  3. DiO'Bolic

    DiO'Bolic Mr. Man



    Can we use the same reasoning to annex Canada? It does border Russia (over the North Pole), and I hear they speak English (well mostly), has lots of natural resources, fine whiskey, and cooler seasons for when global warming hits (Canada's seasons: Almost Winter, Winter, Still Winter, and Road Construction). Sounds like sound American defense to me. ;)
     
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  4. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Active Member

    You're exaggerating a little. =D Crimea was russian territory more over 200 years. But not's the point, as I said, this is strategically important region for Russian defense. The US doesn't need to annex Canada - she's already in the sphere of influence of the USA. I don't think, the US let come in power pro-russian government in Canada.
    Look, here's another interview with Scott Richard, he's former officer of the US intelligence, he good said about it:
    US foreign aid agencies paid for Kiev street violence - ex-US agent - YouTube
     
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  5. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Active Member

    Interesting article of Robert Parry about the Ukrainian Coup and how it's represented in the US media:
    Cheering a 'Democratic' Coup in Ukraine
    Here are some extracts of it:
    Cheering a 'Democratic' Coup in Ukraine

    There was always a measure of hypocrisy but Official Washington used to at least pretend to stand for “democracy,” rather than taking such obvious pleasure in destabilizing elected governments, encouraging riots, overturning constitutional systems and then praising violent putsches.

    But events in Ukraine and Venezuela suggest that the idea of respecting the results of elections and working within legal, albeit flawed, political systems is no longer in vogue, unless the “U.S. side” happens to win, of course. If the “U.S. side” loses, then it’s time for some “shock doctrine.” And, of course, the usual demonizing of the “enemy” leader.

    Ukraine’s ousted President Viktor Yanukovych was surely no one’s idea of a pristine politician, though it looks like there are few to none of those in Ukraine, a country essentially controlled by a collection of billionaire oligarchs who jockey for power and shift their allegiances among corrupt politicians.

    But Yanukovych was elected in what was regarded as a reasonably fair election in 2010. Indeed, some international observers called the election an important step toward establishing an orderly political process in Ukraine...

    ...Even NBC, from its treasured spot as the network of the Olympic Games, felt it had no choice but to denounce Putin in an extraordinary commentary delivered by anchor Bob Costas. Once the demonizing ball gets rolling everyone has to join in or risk getting run over, too.

    All of which set the stage for Ukraine. The issue at hand was whether Yanukovych should accept a closer relationship with the European Union, which was demanding substantial economic “reforms,” including an austerity plan dictated by the International Monetary Fund. Yanukovych balked at the harsh terms and turned to Ukraine’s neighbor Russia, which was offering a $15 billion loan and was keeping Ukraine’s economy afloat with discounted natural gas.

    Reasonable people can disagree about whether the EU was driving too hard a bargain or whether Ukraine should undertake such painful economic “reforms” – or how Yanukovych should have balanced the interests of his divided country, with the east dominated by ethnic Russians and the west leaning toward Europe

    But protesters from western Ukraine, including far-right nationalists, sought to turn this policy dispute into a means for overthrowing the elected government. Police efforts to quell the disturbances turned violent, with the police not the only culprits. Police faced armed neo-Nazi storm troopers who attacked with firebombs and other weapons.

    Though the U.S. news media did show scenes of these violent melees, the U.S. press almost universally blamed Yanukovych – and took almost gleeful pleasure as his elected government collapsed and was replaced by thuggish right-wing militias “guarding” government buildings.

    Loving a Putsch

    Now, right-wing militias, representing those historical resentments toward the Russians and hostility toward the Jews, have seized control of many government buildings in Kiev. Faced with this intimidation, the often-unanimous decisions by the remaining legislators would normally be viewed with extreme skepticism, including their demands for the capture and likely execution of Yanukovych.

    But the U.S. press corps can’t get beyond its demonization of Putin and Yanukovych. The neocon Washington Post has been almost euphoric over the coup, as expressed in a Feb. 24 editorial:

    “Ukraine has shaken off its corrupt president and the immediate prospect of domination by Russia — but at the risk of further conflict. The decision by Viktor Yanukovych to flee Kiev over the weekend triggered the disintegration of his administration and prompted parliament to replace him and schedule elections for May.
    “The moves were democratic — members of Mr. Yanukovych’s party joined in the parliamentary votes — but they had the effect of nullifying an accord between the former government and opposition that had been brokered by the European Union and tacitly supported by Russia...
    ...The Post continued, “What’s not clear is whether Mr. Putin would accept a Ukraine that is not under the Kremlin’s thumb. The first indications are not good: Though Mr. Putin has been publicly silent about Ukraine since Friday, the rhetoric emanating from his government has been angry and belligerent. A foreign ministry statement Monday alleged that ‘a course has been set to use dictatorial and sometimes terrorist methods to suppress dissenters in various regions.’”

    So, the Washington Post’s editors consider the violent overthrow of a democratically elected president to be “democratic” and take comfort in “democratic” actions by a legislature, despite the curious lack of any no votes and the fact that this balloting has occurred under the watchful eye of neo-Nazi storm troopers patrolling government offices. And, according to the Post, the Russian government is unhinged to detect “dictatorial and sometimes terrorist methods.”...
    ...The outcomes for the people of these countries that are “saved” from their imperfect leaders, however, often tend to be quite ugly. Usually, they experience long periods of brutal repression at the hands of dictators, but that typically happens outside the frame of the U.S. news media’s focus or interest. Those unhappy countries fade from view almost as quickly as they were thrust to center stage, next to the demonization of their elected leaders.

    And another his article:
    Neocons and the Ukraine Coup
     
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  6. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Active Member

    And about Crimea and Russian "aggression":
    Crimea’s Case for Leaving Ukraine | Consortiumnews
    If you were living in Crimea, would you prefer to remain part of Ukraine with its coup-installed government – with neo-Nazis running four ministries including the Ministry of Defense – or would you want to become part of Russia, which has had ties to Crimea going back to Catherine the Great in the 1700s?

    Granted, it’s not the greatest choice in the world, but it’s the practical one facing you. For all its faults, Russia has a functioning economy while Ukraine really doesn’t. Russia surely has its share of political and financial corruption but some of that has been brought under control...
    What’s Wrong with Secession?

    And, despite what you hear from the U.S. government and the mainstream U.S. media, it’s not at all uncommon for people to separate themselves from prior allegiances.

    It’s especially common amid political upheavals, like Ukraine’s neo-Nazi-spearheaded coup that ousted elected President Viktor Yanukovych – after he signed an agreement on Feb. 21 to relinquish much of his power, hold early elections and order police to withdraw.

    Though this agreement was co-signed by European nations, they stood aside when neo-Nazi militias exploited the police withdrawal and overran government buildings, forcing Yanukovych and many government officials to flee for their lives.
    Then, under the watchful eye of these modern-day storm troopers, the rump parliament “impeached” Yanukovych but did not follow the procedures laid out by Ukraine’s constitution. The overthrow was, in reality, a putsch.
    But American political leaders and journalists have pretty well expunged that inconvenient history, making the crisis simply a case of black-hatted villain, Russian President Vladimir Putin, bullying the white-hatted “pro-democracy” coup-making heroes of Ukraine.

    U.S. politicians and pundits now cite the Ukrainian constitution as some sacred document as they argue that Crimea has no right to hold a popular referendum on leaving Ukraine and joining the Russian Federation. President Barack Obama says a Crimean plebiscite would be illegitimate unless Crimea gets permission to secede from the national government in Kiev as stipulated in the constitution.

    In other words, the Ukrainian constitution can be violated at will when that serves Official Washington’s interests, but it is inviolate when that’s convenient. That situational view also presumes that some normal constitutional process exists in Kiev when one doesn’t.
    More Hypocrisy

    This U.S. government/media hypocrisy on the Crimean vote is underscored, too, by Official Washington’s frequent role in advocating and even mid-wifing secession movements when they correspond with U.S. foreign policy interests.

    Fifteen separate nations emerged from the Soviet Union’s collapse in 1991 as U.S. politicians celebrated. No one seemed to mind either when Czechoslovakia split into the Czech Republic and Slovakia in 1993.

    That same decade, U.S. officials helped negotiate the dissection of Yugoslavia into various ethnic enclaves. Later in the 1990s, the U.S. government even bombed Serbia to help Kosovo gain its independence, despite centuries of deep historical ties between Serbia and Kosovo.

    The Obama administration disputes allegations of U.S. hypocrisy about secessions, calling these comparisons “apples and oranges.” But the truth is that all secession cases are unique, a balance of history, pragmatism and politics. Very seldom are they simple and clear-cut.

    In Crimea, the case for secession from Ukraine seems strong: Crimea is populated mostly by ethnic Russians; many people speak Russian; and they have historically viewed themselves as part of Russia. If a large majority of the voters prefer joining Russia, why shouldn’t they?

    Perhaps the case for Crimea’s secession would have been weaker if the Western nations hadn’t so eagerly embraced the putsch in Kiev. If the Feb. 21 agreement had been enforced – clearing the way for Yanukovych’s orderly departure – Obama’s argument might make more sense. The constitutional procedures would have remained intact.
    But the haste with which Washington and Brussels recognized the coup government – with Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland’s choice for Ukraine’s leadership, neoconservative favorite Arseny Yatsenyuk, named interim prime minister – shattered the formal political process of Ukraine.

    That was followed by the post-coup rump parliament passing measures, often unanimously, that targeted the political security of ethnic Russians in the country’s east and south. Combined with threats from the neo-Nazis who have grabbed significant power and favor a purified Ukraine for ethnic Ukrainians, the nation confronts a potential civil war.

    In such a case – with the prospects of ethnic cleansing and the violence that would surely follow – the most reasonable solution might well be to hold referenda in Crimea and in eastern Ukraine on whether the people in those areas want to stay attached to the Kiev regime. If the people in those regions want independence or association with Russia, why should the United States ratchet up a new Cold War to prevent that?
    If what’s left of Ukraine wants to join the European Union — and if the EU would want it — then those Ukrainians could vote for their future, too.

    Democracy means little if populations are compelled to remain part of an undemocratic regime that has seized power in the capital by force and demonstrates hostility toward outlying regions. Since such a predicament now exists in Ukraine, the best-imperfect solution could be to dispatch international observers to Crimea to monitor the plebiscite and verify whether the popular vote fairly reflects the people’s will.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
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  7. Serhiy Krykun

    Serhiy Krykun Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry to say this, but Mr. Ace is lying about everything. There are few people left who're not brainwashed by Putin. My faith is with the people who managed to figure everything out – yesterday there were some marchen in support of peace, democracy and Ukraine.
    Here's what happens to the people who dare sporting Ukrainian flags and singing the anthem in Moscow:

    And here's Saint Petersburg, striking contrast:

    St. Petersburg seems the only sane city left in the whole wide Russia.:down:

    Russian troops are here, they helped annex Crimea with this farce of a referendum, and now there are more on the South-East of the country and the reason is simple -- Crimea will starve with no Ukrainian supplies (not enough drinking water and electricity) and Putin needs a dry land way to it.
    I was at Maidan, I saw it with my own eyes. There were no foreign money involved, nobody helped us. If you don't believe me, see for yourself -- I guess, these photos say it all. Or do you think it could be done for money? People were dying there, but didn't budge.
    I'm sorry for being brief, it's time to go to bed. I just couldn't leave Ace's incessant ranting unopposed. If someone wants to ask me something, I'll be happy to oblige. But I won't enter a discusion with Ace for obvious reasons.

    Glory to Ukraine!

    [​IMG]
    This is a photo, taken on the eve that special police force Berkut brutally beaten the students that were protesting on Maidan, the Independence Square in the centre of Kyiv.

    Oh, does anybody know what Mr. King himself thinks of the conflict? Or is he being cautiously mute on the subject?
     
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  8. FlakeNoir

    FlakeNoir Beta/Moderator Moderator

    I'm so sorry... :(
     
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  9. Serhiy Krykun

    Serhiy Krykun Well-Known Member

    FlakeNoir! You removed the nonsense! You're my hero! :heart:
    I wasn't hoping for that, since... well, freedom of speech is important, but some... representatives of the human race must be silenced.

    But I'm serious -- should anyone have any questions -- do not hesitate to ask, I'll try to assist.
    Tonight the 'separatists', who are, for the most part, Russians that aren't really trying to disguise themselves, hit a Ukrainian helicopter -- one pilot is dead, the other is held captive... And it's escalating. It's 10 AM, but I can't sleep.

    I hope there will be fewer dead than I think.
     
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  10. FlakeNoir

    FlakeNoir Beta/Moderator Moderator

    I'm not sure what it is you think I may have removed, sorry?
     
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  11. Serhiy Krykun

    Serhiy Krykun Well-Known Member

    Oh. Probably, it was done by somebody else. There was a series of posts, written by a guy from Russia, who was clearly brainwashed by Putin -- they were gone after I posted my comment, so I presumed it was you.

    This night 2, not 1 Ukrainian helicopter pilots were killed, but the anti-terrorist operation is moving forward and rather successfully. There's still hope that Putin won't dare to bring the full-fledged troops into our land.
     
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  12. FlakeNoir

    FlakeNoir Beta/Moderator Moderator

    I think the posts might still actually be there, it's possible that you have selected to ignore the member's messages? (This can be accessed in the user's profile area.)
    You're right that I must approve differing sides to the same issue, but you will definitely have the choice as to whether or not you view the messages.

    I hope there will be no more loss of life and I'm so sorry for the terrible things happening in your country. Please stay safe...
     
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  13. Serhiy Krykun

    Serhiy Krykun Well-Known Member

    Oh, I see. Yes, I did that for the guy not to pester me via private messages, etc, but I didn't realize I won't be seeing his posted messages. Removing him from ignore list.
    I guess, after everything has been made clear, you may remove the offtopic discussion. Or leave it. As you wish.
     
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  14. FlakeNoir

    FlakeNoir Beta/Moderator Moderator

    Serhiy, if another member is pestering/messaging you unreasonably, please feel free to use our Report system to alert the moderators and steps will be taken to stop the behaviour. Everybody has the right to feel comfortable here without unwanted and antagonising behaviour. (These off-topic messages can stay... :) )
     
  15. Serhiy Krykun

    Serhiy Krykun Well-Known Member

    Got it! I don't hang out at forums that much and this place is a bit different from what I've dealt with. :fingers:Thanks for the explanations!
     
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  16. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    Thank you for your contribution, Serhiy.

    I think it was clear from "other countries joining an alliance is aggression; our invasion of other countries is defense" that there was some illogical processes going on and that not much further was necessary. It's not rewarding to debate with the guy who's hollering on the street corner.

    I'm sorry for you and your country's pain and struggles. I hope there's a clear light for you all at the end of this process, and soon.
     
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  17. Serhiy Krykun

    Serhiy Krykun Well-Known Member

    Grandpa thank you dearly for your support!
    To tell the truth, I was surprised to see these lies spreading even to a Stephen King forum. Speaking of Crimea being Russian hundreds of years ago... We might as well remember that there was a mega-country called Kievan Rus -- it's centre was Kyiv, so if Russia is a separate country now, we might want to get it back. Just how ridiculous is that?
    But really, I'd be OK with Crimea gone, part of the country gone, if it was legitimate. I don't know, if you, people, have seen the reports about the so-called 'green men' in Crimea -- military troops, that Putin denies were there, but then throws it all away with issuing military medals 'For the return of Crimea'.
    This night and today there might be a turning point in the struggle. 'Separatists' appear to be armed with guns and MPADs -- this is not the Molotov cocktails that people were using at Maidan, and it's obvious who's behind this. But the wildest thing of all, is that they tend to use civil people as living shields -- I'm not investing this, it's easy to google it. I'm attaching a photo of it as well.
    Today Russian threatened our government, demanding to stop the anti-terrorist operation OR ELSE. It's tough. If the special forces don't drive these dogs away, they'll tear the country to pieces, and if they do, Putin may send in... reinforcements.
    And today they're trying to let chaos lose in Odessa -- the other photo I attached was made about an hour ago.
    Neighbour. Neighbouring country. They like to think of them as of a Senior Brother. If they're not stopped, it's going to become Big Brother. I guess, few Russian have actually read Orwell's '1984'.
     

    Attached Files:

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  18. hossenpepper

    hossenpepper Keeper of Octopus Volcano

    I think from reading Serhiy's words here I will stick with my original thoughts on this: the US needs to stay far away from this. What's made that even more clear to me is that it's obvious you can't fully understand this if you don't live there and are of that culture, so your opinion is probably misguided at best otherwise.

    I hope for the best for your people.
     
  19. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Active Member

    Really? How wonder. Well, then why would you tell us what happened in Odessa today? Here's what these guys from Maidan did do to their opponents:

    31 people die after radicals set Trade Unions House on fire in Ukraine's Odessa — RT News

    I just add that death toll is over 40 people by now, those who burnt. They were burnt alive, those who jumped out trying to save, have been killed by radicals from Maidan. If Russia wouldn't annex Crimea the same thing would be there. So is it such freedom and democracy - to burn alive those who oppose?


    Oh, how sweet. But I'll spoil your good picture with ugly truth. That's how maidan fighters're burn Berkut:



    Here's how were killed Maidan activists:



    Glory to heroes! The whole slogan is: "Glory to Ukraine - Glory to Heroes!" For those who doesn't know this is the UPA's slogan, simply Nazi slogan. Benderov's Division SS "Galichina" was killing Russian, Jews, Polish people during WWII. Then they called themselves UPA - Ukrainian Insurgent Army. Now these people, correctly, their followers are acting in Ukraine. They've called The Right Sector. Their fighers there were on Maidan and killed unarmed Berkut soldiers. Now they're killing and burning people in the East-Ukraine.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2014
  20. Serhiy Krykun

    Serhiy Krykun Well-Known Member

    Mr. Ace, I have just one reply for you:


    These people on the ark were killed. And this is one of many precedents.

    Thus I end our brief exchange.

    But I'll continue posting the situation updates. This night was horrible. I'll get back to you in a little while -- I have some very detailed reports here, from the people of Odessa, who witnessed the whole thing.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2014
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