The war on religion

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Shasta, Jan 8, 2014.

  1. VampireLily
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    VampireLily Vampire Goddess & General P.I.T.A

    Yes... what a world indeed. (HUGS)
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  2. Jordan
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    Jordan Webmaster-at-Large Administrator Moderator

    It's just a subject that interested me, so I've read a bit about it ;).

    As for the avatar, you could set up and use a Gravatar. It's not really the same, but it may be easier to use than the built-in system.
  3. DiO'Bolic
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    DiO'Bolic Simply Stated

    I'll' see your Britannica Blog, and raise you founding.com and "Religion and the Founding of the American Republic" from the Libary of Congress:



    http://founding.com/the_declaration_of_i/pageID.2416/default.asp


    Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions - Library of Congress

    And regarding the part about Benjamin Franklin, let's let his words speak for themselves:



    And for good measure here's a selection from something well worth reading:
    http://creationists.org/myth-of-the-seperation-of-church-and-state.html
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  4. DiO'Bolic
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    DiO'Bolic Simply Stated

    Let's continue with that Treaty of Tripoli
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_tripoli

    And for final good measure how about:
    Northwest Ordinance
    (requirements for statehood).
    SECTION 13, ARTICLE III
    "Religion, morality, and knowledge being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged."
    (Passed from July 17 - August 7, 1789; during the midst of the framing of the First Amendment, which was June 7 - September 25, 1789. And it is important to note that the founding fathers used the word religion to mean Christianity.)
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  5. Jordan
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    Jordan Webmaster-at-Large Administrator Moderator

    To quote your quote on the Treaty of Tripoli, "By their actions, the Founding Fathers made clear that their primary concern was religious freedom, not the advancement of a state religion." Ergo, not a Christian nation. ;)
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  6. DiO'Bolic
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    DiO'Bolic Simply Stated

    Ergo Shmergo! ;) Don't forget :

    "intended to allay the fears of the Muslim state by insisting that religion would not govern how the treaty was interpreted and enforced."

    "By their actions, the Founding Fathers made clear that their primary concern was religious freedom, not the advancement of a state religion."

    The bolded part is the most important part IMO, and is the real meaning behind the so-called "separation of church and state." It only means the US government will not have an "official" form of religion -- as did England. Nothing in any of that diminishes the fact that the US was founded on the principals of Christianity.

    What did you think about requirements for statehood?

    Jordon, I don't think we will ever see eye to eye on this. We both can make valid arguments to support our predisposition. As an agnostic, some might think I would take your side, but the truth is my beliefs (or non-beliefs) has nothing to do with the fact and acknowledgement that our nation was founded on Christian principals. People like us will be debating this until the Second Coming. :)
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  7. Autumn Gust
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    Autumn Gust Well-Known Member

    Tell that to Snow White! :biggrin2: From a practicing witch, I say thank you.
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  8. DiO'Bolic
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    DiO'Bolic Simply Stated

    I’m just curious, and would like to better understand, but what is the point of witchcraft?
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  9. Christine62
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    Christine62 Well-Known Member

    There are many who want Prayer back in school but when it comes down to it---uh---only Christian prayers. People would freak out if a Muslim wanted to chant an Arabic prayer in school--methinks their ears would melt. What Christians don't know about Islam is a whole other post.
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  10. Tery
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    Tery Moderator Moderator

    The point? It's a religion. It's a way of life. I'm pretty sure I've written about it here before and, if you are who I think you are, you know I have.

    This is a pretty good explanation. Wiccans are Pagan but not all Pagans are Wiccan. Wicca and Witchcraft are synonymous.
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  11. DiO'Bolic
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    DiO'Bolic Simply Stated

    Well, thank you for part of that Tery. I don't recall you addressing witchcraft in the past.

    When I think about religion I think about worship or reverence of a higher order, the way one lives their lives based on principles of one's beliefs, and usually the potential of our afterlife resulting on how we live our lives according to those beliefs.

    I somewhat understand the spirituality and reverence of Witchcraft, but wonder if it can be considered a religion... "the point." And by that, I don't mean to demean it, and let me explain. I love to fish. When I go fishing, I find a spirituality through the connection with nature and deep respect that I am part of something much larger. It takes me away from the pressures of everyday life, and renders a pleasant perspective of the natural world. I enjoy the one on one battle with the fish and respect that it provides sustenance. The experience helps me to appreciate the fragility of nature and a responsibility to protect it. As Thoreau once wrote: "Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after."

    I might be wrong in my understanding of witchcraft and that is why I asked. I guess the point I'm making here is I appreciate the spirituality of the experience, and the communal with nature when I go fishing, but I wouldn't consider it a form of religion. Who knows, perhaps it is.
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2014
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  12. Tery
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    Tery Moderator Moderator

    Well, it is a religion. It meets all the standards of one: it offers a template for living with hope and and responsibility. It offers community. What it does not offer is dogma and rules. Each of us creates our own experience. We see the Goddess and God the way we wish to see them. We worship them they way we wish to. Every act becomes an act of worship when you recognize the Divinity of all things. Our one rule is "Harm none," more specifically, "With harm toward none and for the good of all." We are just as capable of having morals and ethics as anyone who follows a book and/or a leader. We don't have a "satan" to blame when we mess up, either.

    Do you get "the point" now? ;)
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  13. DiO'Bolic
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    DiO'Bolic Simply Stated

    Thanks. You make some good and valid points.
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  14. Walter Oobleck
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    Walter Oobleck keeps coming back...or going, and going, and going

  15. Robert Gray
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    Robert Gray Well-Known Member

    To play the Devil's Advocate, what is the point of Christianity? What is the point of any system of beliefs? If I were to put on my Anthropologist's hat for a moment, I might point out that religion is a type of technology, i.e. a form of software (an operating system) by which a group of people see the world around them. It interacts with whatever subsistence method (day to day economics) they use to survive. Different types of beliefs encourage different types of behaviors. In some situations it is advantageous for a group of people (a society) and allows them to get the jump on others. In some cases it is not advantageous or begins to be at odds with the subsistence methods. In short, religions always seem to change to work in tandem with subsistence strategies. If they do not, they die out.

    Taking off the Anthropologist's hat, I would point out that whether or not religions are technology or tools has nothing to do with the veracity of said religions. The fact that human beings use them (and change them) as convenient doesn't mean diddly to the powers that be. The point of any set of beliefs is to make sense of the world as we know it as well as the worlds beyond that we don't know yet. Religions (true or false) take the place of that letter you see in math equations. That letter represents something that we don't know yet but seek to solve.
  16. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    Actually the first addition of In God we trust was in 1864. This is per the the US treasury, not wikipedia.

    History of 'In God We Trust'

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  17. Dr. Fudd
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    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    Neesy, it was 1864, not 1956. Here's the info from the US Department of Treasury.

    History of 'In God We Trust'

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  18. Neesy
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    Neesy #1 fan (Annie Wilkes cousin) 1st cousin Mom's side

    In Canada our change says Elizabeth II and Canada with the date, but no mention of God (I think).

    I went out with a young fellow who considered himself an amateur numismatist but mostly he was interested in things like the fact dimes before 1967 were sterling silver. In the mid 70s they were still in circulation and he used to go looking for 10 cent coins in the pop machine (his parents owned a corner store).

    [​IMG][​IMG]


    Americans think our money looks funny - it is quite colourful :question_pig:Our government also stopped producing the penny coin recently.
  19. Dana Jean
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    Dana Jean Beta Tester/Moderator Moderator

    I love other country's money. I think it's pretty and it's art.
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  20. Grandpa
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    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    Every Sunday, if I go to the grocery store down the street, I run a gauntlet of city cops who have the road coned and compressed in order to let the traffic in and out of the superchurch that has gone up between the store and my house.

    I don't see much of a "war on religion" in this country, honestly. I'm one who thinks churches should pay property tax on the properties that they own, and I know that's not going to happen.

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