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Discussion in 'Religion' started by Dr. Fudd, Mar 8, 2014.
All set now.
If you believe in Jesus Christ and that the bible is the word of God (not saying that you do), then heaven couldn't be subjective. The bible gives an image of heaven and hell that are not the entire experience by any means. Both will be much more than the bible describes. More wonderful and more terrible respectively.
If you've never experienced the miracle of salvation through Jesus Christ, then I guess stating that any one religion is the right one seems presumptuous. But religion doesn't save anyone, and as a Christian, I don't follow a religion, I follow and have a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
If I was satan, I would cause just what has happened in the world: Dozens of religions. Just in Christianity there are 39,000 denominations (only about 400 are recognized) many of which walk wide of the teachings of the bible. Making it as confusing as possible to find the truth and many seeming to be truth. The truth that has saved me is, Jesus Christ, born of a virgin died on the cross to pay the debt for my sins and rose again on the third day blessing us with the Holy Spirit. That truth has sustained me where nothing else, no other "belief system" has ever delivered.
That's nice Doc..just saying,you may be right,I may be right,maybe everyone who took the time to post here may be right..religion is a very personal thing,and I don't mean to give offense to you or any one else who have their beliefs..I just believe,that keeping an open mind and trying to be the best person one can be,is not a bad way to go..was raised Catholic,and believe Jesus was a very good man..just don't think any one religion is the end all be all..
Are you familiar with this verse in 2 Corinthians5:8? "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." If you read the verse into it's context it only gives two places you can be, with the Lord or absent from Him. Jesus said to the thief on the cross "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." He was a common thief, yet he went to heaven that same day.
Christ died that you should have life, and life ever lasting, John 10:10 "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly". John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
None of these suggest that I'm going anywhere but heaven if I die in faith. There are of course, the many verses that say if you don't die in obedience to Christ that hell is the result. What you're talking about doesn't sound much like what Jesus promised us by His atoning sacrifice.
If you believe Jesus was just a "good man" and not God, then you'll have to agree that Jesus was a liar, because Jesus said he was God and the Son of God John 5:23 "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." John 14:9 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" Not to mention Jesus didn't pray to bring people back to life or heal them, he just called them to life. Something the people of the day recognized, as with forgiving of sins, was something only God could do. If you don't believe the bible is factual then God is too weak to provide us with a record of His desire, and that turns out to be true? Then we're all baked. Can there be more than one truth? If those multiple "truths" contradict one another in even the slightest way, doesn't one of them have to be false?
I hope you're right. Eternity is a long time.
So here's the question then, "What makes you think you're going to heaven?" You can be the first one to even attempt to answer the question the thread poses.
The bible says much the same thing as the song, Matt 6:34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."
I’m sure in the roughly 3,000 times I’ve attended mass, I’ve heard it numerous times. God has instructed me to live a decent life. Jesus never came up in the conversation. Even so, I’m a big defender and an outspoken supporter for Christianity, basically for all the good it does. So to your question... That’s what I think. That’s what you were interested in, right? It wasn’t just a ploy to preach was it?
This reminds me of the verse where Paul said in Romans 9:2-4 if he could, he'd go to hell that all his kinsmen who he preached to and labored for would go to heaven. But the problem was, he couldn't die and go to hell for them to insure their passage into heaven. That was already done to perfection by Jesus and only through a relationship with Jesus could salvation be achieved. Jesus said, in john 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Doesn't really answer the question, no. Purgatory isn't mentioned in the bible, but Jesus is. Where do you get the basis for purgatory? How can you be a big supporter of Christianity for all the good it does, and not recognize that Jesus said no matter how good you are, you don't make it to heaven without Him? But I guess you did say you're a big supporter of Christianity but didn't say you believe in Christ.
Fudd, has it occurred to you that you aren't getting straight answers because you don't appear to be interested in respectful dialogue? It appears that your interest is in haranguing and belittling those who do not ascribe to your very narrow views. On other threads there have been interesting and enlightening discussions of visions of the afterlife from various viewpoints, and they work because the participants treat each others beliefs with respect. Doesn't mean we all agree, but we put kindness first.
My salvation is not your problem, nor is yours mine. It can be neither bought, sold, or forced upon us. Salvation is between each person and the God in which they believe (if they believe). What is my problem and yours is how we model our beliefs and the manner in which we treat other people.
I appreciate that you are passionate about your faith, but you are a terrible messenger of the Christ you profess to follow because you drive people away from His message--"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself"-- by your intransigence. Love is not force, and it is not belittlement. Jesus did not teach the masses by deriding them--look to the Sermon on the Mount for your guide here: he taught general, basic lessons with love. It was only once people became true disciples that he set aside the milk (the easy stuff) of faith and dug into the meat (the harder stuff). He waited until they WANTED to hear more. And many did, because he loved them into faith. Even John the Baptist did not teach his hard lessons to unbelievers--he saved it for those already ready to convert from the heart.
I'm done here. I tell you these things from genuine caring, because I know you love your faith deeply. Respect that others love their own as well.
Thank you for this. It's useful to me. It doesn't matter what I think I'm saying, it only matters what people hear.
Yes it is a long time. As a practiceing Catholic I go to mass regularly, but not so I will go to heaven. I don't think thats how it works. I really think it's how you live your life. Doing what you believe to be right. Random acts of kindness. Paying it forward. The Ten commandments boil down to not stealing. I just try to live an honest life. I think thats the prerequisite.
I don't know. I base my hope of salvation more on what the bible says than what I think. It's not a popular stance to take. But there's clear evidence in James 4 that faith will produce good works and as you've alluded to, that good works doesn't produce salvation. I'm fascinated by the balance in the bible, where it gives the full spectrum of behavior in the verses. Taken as a whole and as led by the Holy Spirit, the bible (to me) is a miracle.
I'm not denying the miracles in the Bible. But it didn't come straight from Heaven or God by fax. It was interpreted by fallible humans. It also contains a lot of contradictions. So I will conyinue to live the way I think is right.
My reply was lighthearted. Sorry, I'm not on these boards to get too deeply into my religious beliefs. That's between me and my God. I'll just graciously bow out now...
Well, I'm going out of my league here, because I've forgotten more Catholicism than I was taught. But as I remember, I was taught there was more direct references in II Maccabees and Revelation, and more allusory references elsewhere, but I'd have to look them up, and I'm not quite that invested in the discussion.
I support the Christian ethic of being good to one another, of being tolerant, of helping each other out, to rein in the judgmentalism. To that extent, I would say I support Christianity. To the extent that its practitioners preach intolerance, repress knowledge, or practice evangelism by force, I do not. And if there is a God, and if Christianity is the correct way to go, and if the Bible (whichever version one subscribes to) is accurate, I simply would not believe that millions or billions of inhabitants have been put on this planet without access to knowledge of Jesus and hence must be condemned.