Writing Hobbyists

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Donald Miller

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2014
86
341
Sarasota
I came by here hoping to meet some writing hobbyists. I haven't really found any writing groups in which I'm all that interested. The reason for this is because most of the people are either posting insatiably about "how to get published" or seeking other people who will read their work without taking much interest in the writing of other members. I figure that the people who gather on a prolific and successful long-time writer's site probably have a nice degree of humility.

So, anyone working on learning the craft of writing, as I am? I'd be interested in sharing ideas and so forth, if you'd like.
 

Donald Miller

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2014
86
341
Sarasota
Hi Donald, and welcome.
What do you have in mind? A virtual writing group?
For me, it would be nice to to discuss writing with other people who are learning the craft and have little to no interest in getting formally published. I can get published on my website -- once I have something in good enough condition to merit reading. I don't like the loneliness of going it alone. Also, I think there's a good deal that people can learn from each other by sharing ideas and giving encouragement.

Most writing groups are filled with people who consider themselves outstanding writers, on the verge of getting published and making a living from it. I find that attitude very off-putting. I'd like to be in a group of people who know they have a good deal to learn and to teach, and who do it for the enjoyment of the creativity involved. There must be a million other things someone can do to make money, if that's all they're interested in.
 
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Donald Miller

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2014
86
341
Sarasota
Hi Donald, and welcome.
What do you have in mind? A virtual writing group?
Part Two
My time expired to edit the previous message, (Didn't know I had a set amount of time.) Anywho, no problem, I'll place it here on "Son of 'it would be nice to discuss writing'"

These are the features in a good book for a Creative Writing 101 class. It's called "Literature: How to read and write."
Here are the topics it covers--

1. Introduction: Reading, Responding to, and Writing about Literature.

What Is Literature, and Why do We Study It? Types of Literatures: The Genres. Reading Literature and Responding to It Actively.

2. Fiction: an Overview

Modern Fiction.

The Short Story.

Elements of Fiction I:

Verisimilitude and Donnée.

Elements of Fiction II:

Character, Plot, Structure, and Idea or Theme.

Elements of Fiction III: The Writer’s Tools.

Plot: The Motivation and Causation of Fiction. Writing about the Plot of a Story. Illustrative Student Essay: Plot in Faulkner’s “A Rose for Emily”. Special Topics for Writing and Argument about Plot in Fiction.

3. Structure: The Organization of Stories.

The Structure of Fiction. Formal Categories of Structure. Formal and Actual Structure.

4. Characters: The People in Fiction.

Character Traits. How Authors Disclose Character in Literature. Types of Characters: Round and Flat. Reality and Probability: Verisimilitude.

5. Point of View: The Position or Stance of the Narrator or Speaker.

6. Setting: The Background of Place, Objects, and Culture in Stories.

What Is Setting? The Literary Uses of Setting.

7. Style: The Words That Tell the Story.

Diction: The Writer’s Choice and Control of Words. Rhetoric: The Writer’s Choices of Effective Arrangements and Forms. Style in General.

8. Tone: The Expression of Attitude in Fiction.

Tone and Attitudes. Tone and Humor. Tone and Irony.

9. Symbolism and Allegory: Keys to Extended Meaning.

Symbolism. Allegory. Fable, Parable, and Myth. Allusion in Symbolism and Allegory.

10. Idea or Theme: The Meaning and the Message in Fiction.

An even better book is Story By Robert McKee. It goes into even greater detail.

A free online gathering of nice people eager to be fully engaged in learning the concepts and discussing their own and the other member's writings would be a place where some magic could occur.

.
 

Robert Gray

Well-Known Member
My own view is that if you are going to take the time and effort to learn the craft, write your stories, and hone them.... it would be a real shame not to publish them at some point. I have little interest in talking about how to get published myself. We must walk before we run, and thus the work is more useful to talk about up and until you have a second or third draft of a finished manuscript. :D
 
Sep 18, 2014
11
77
44
Part Two
My time expired to edit the previous message, (Didn't know I had a set amount of time.) Anywho, no problem, I'll place it here on "Son of 'it would be nice to discuss writing'"

These are the features in a good book for a Creative Writing 101 class. It's called "Literature: How to read and write."
Here are the topics it covers--

1. Introduction: Reading, Responding to, and Writing about Literature.

What Is Literature, and Why do We Study It? Types of Literatures: The Genres. Reading Literature and Responding to It Actively.

2. Fiction: an Overview

Modern Fiction.

The Short Story.

Elements of Fiction I:

Verisimilitude and Donnée.

Elements of Fiction II:

Character, Plot, Structure, and Idea or Theme.

Elements of Fiction III: The Writer’s Tools.

Plot: The Motivation and Causation of Fiction. Writing about the Plot of a Story. Illustrative Student Essay: Plot in Faulkner’s “A Rose for Emily”. Special Topics for Writing and Argument about Plot in Fiction.

3. Structure: The Organization of Stories.

The Structure of Fiction. Formal Categories of Structure. Formal and Actual Structure.

4. Characters: The People in Fiction.

Character Traits. How Authors Disclose Character in Literature. Types of Characters: Round and Flat. Reality and Probability: Verisimilitude.

5. Point of View: The Position or Stance of the Narrator or Speaker.

6. Setting: The Background of Place, Objects, and Culture in Stories.

What Is Setting? The Literary Uses of Setting.

7. Style: The Words That Tell the Story.

Diction: The Writer’s Choice and Control of Words. Rhetoric: The Writer’s Choices of Effective Arrangements and Forms. Style in General.

8. Tone: The Expression of Attitude in Fiction.

Tone and Attitudes. Tone and Humor. Tone and Irony.

9. Symbolism and Allegory: Keys to Extended Meaning.

Symbolism. Allegory. Fable, Parable, and Myth. Allusion in Symbolism and Allegory.

10. Idea or Theme: The Meaning and the Message in Fiction.

An even better book is Story By Robert McKee. It goes into even greater detail.

A free online gathering of nice people eager to be fully engaged in learning the concepts and discussing their own and the other member's writings would be a place where some magic could occur.

.
I'd be really interested in this. I've been a reader my whole life, but I'm really new to my own writing. I'd love to be involved in discussions and talk about others' work so I can grow in my own work and maybe help others do the same. Sounds awesome!
 

GNTLGNT

The idiot is IN
Jun 15, 2007
87,651
358,754
62
Cambridge, Ohio
stock-footage-seamless-looping-emoticon-animation-hi-with-alpha-mask-isolated-on-black.jpg
 

Donald Miller

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2014
86
341
Sarasota
My own view is that if you are going to take the time and effort to learn the craft, write your stories, and hone them.... it would be a real shame not to publish them at some point. I have little interest in talking about how to get published myself. We must walk before we run, and thus the work is more useful to talk about up and until you have a second or third draft of a finished manuscript. :D
Yeah. That sounds about right. Of course one of the most famous writers of all time, Emily Dickinson, had no intention of being published.
 

Demeter

Well-Known Member
Apr 23, 2008
538
1,424
@Donald: OK, so you want to focus on how to write - tips, ideas, how to stay motivated, maybe posting something the others can critique and in turn discussing what others write. Does that sound right?
What genre are you writing?

I've never read a book as detailed as the one you mentioned. King's "On Writing" was perfect for me because it showed me how he used his experiences to craft stories and didn't dissect the whole process to the tiniest detail.
 

Donald Miller

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2014
86
341
Sarasota
@Donald: OK, so you want to focus on how to write - tips, ideas, how to stay motivated, maybe posting something the others can critique and in turn discussing what others write. Does that sound right?
What genre are you writing?

I've never read a book as detailed as the one you mentioned. King's "On Writing" was perfect for me because it showed me how he used his experiences to craft stories and didn't dissect the whole process to the tiniest detail.
Yes. And I'd like to study writing with other people.

I'm _trying_ to write in the classic fiction genre. I have story ideas that fall within a wide range of themes. The short story and the novella (mostly novella) suits my personality, so those are my main interests.

Hands down my favorite book of Stephen King's is "Secret Window, Secret Garden." I listened to it on audiobook. It was read by James Woods. No doubt that also bumped it up a notch. I can't say I'm a fan of the horror genre. Some of it works for me, like "The Shining."

In regard to movies, I think "Shawshank Redemption" is a great movie. "The Green Mile" is quite good.

I believe all four of the works I mentioned can be generally placed within the classic fiction style.

My favorite author is Joseph Conrad. He built up a stunning body of great work, IMO. Also like Ernest Hemingway and consider him a good role model for new writers. Most new writers give way too much detail and have overly long sentences.

"On Writing" is quite good. Also excellent is William Goldman's "Adventures in the screen trade."

But I have a good deal to learn about the craft. Mostly what I write are scenarios or treatments. I'm not even close to being able to write a well-crafted story. Well, I did write one short story where I surprised myself. Noam Chomsky, who I know through occasional emails, gave me a "Well done" on that one. High cotton coming from him.
 

Donald Miller

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2014
86
341
Sarasota
My own view is that if you are going to take the time and effort to learn the craft, write your stories, and hone them.... it would be a real shame not to publish them at some point. I have little interest in talking about how to get published myself. We must walk before we run, and thus the work is more useful to talk about up and until you have a second or third draft of a finished manuscript. :D
I agree. But I think by going in with the expectation of trying to write a decent body of work without any monetary motives in mind, it's easier to be "true to your own vision," which is what the admiral decided to place on Jim Morrison's grave, "True to his own vision," in Greek.
 

Walter Oobleck

keeps coming back...or going, and going, and going
Mar 6, 2013
11,749
34,805
I've put it in a spoiler because long posts are frowned upon here. We like to communicate with bumper stickers and the quick come-back.

I have boxes and file drawers full of manuscripts...some of it is good...most of it I was spinning my wheels. Greyhound lost my first "novel"...got a check from them for $32601...my zip code at the time...s'posed to have been a couple hundred bucks, insurance claim...never saw it again. I think they got it at Fort Knox...passed through there and some soldiers got off the bus, looked out the window, bunch of green duffel-sea-bags on the asphalt, mine probably among them...too, there was a jar of pennies inside and that is always perfect inspiration for a petty thief to foul things. I imagine The White Elephant sitting on a shelf next to the gold.

I've a thread called "Time Passages" that talks about how a writer uses a character's imagination in a story...something I find appealing, the myriad ways that finds expression in the stories I've read. King is good at at, as if Elmore Leonard, others. A Tree, A Rock, A Plum is my second long story. They don't fall into any particular genre...unless it be what you call classic up above...both a kind of bildungsroman. Have considered retitling the second, A Solace of Ripe Plums...from the William Carlos Williams poem. The first, I had people tell me it reads like Catcher in the Rye, a back-handed compliment, considered what people say about Salinger's story...I've always wondered what he thought of the criticism, large and small. The story is 3rd-person, past...limited...very much so...my nose never further than two inches from the dirty glass. Had more than a few tell me it should be 1st-person.

The 2nd is multiple-person, present...I enjoy Faulkner's As I Lay Dying...and I tried to write the story based on that...you get to view events time after time through the eyes of many...though it is still the journey of experience. I don't know how to end it...so I had the town blow up at the end and our hero heading down the dusty trail. Dynamite plant...ole Karl pushing the angel-buggy...Corky doing the Watusi, letting it all hang out. Atlas Powder, out there in Senter, though the names have been changed to protect the innocent. Had one person read an earlier draft of this second...and what floors me is how he wanted to place scenes, bars, restaurants, in our real world. Heh! Gaaaaaaaawd! I just smiled and agreed with him..."yeah, _________ (I can't remember the name I gave the place) that's Al's Diner alright."
Too, there was this once...Padgett tells me, or asks me, why do I get the sense that everything you write really happened? I smiled again...said nothing...but when I got back to the Sanders House, some of the others living there were under the carport. ( Harry told me that one day I'd publish something and it would all make sense...he's passed on now, but he wrote some great stories. Padgett's style is beyond me.)

I proceeded to tell them a number of oral stories...one, about my old man who wanted me to get out of the whoring business. Held him in my arms, his throat slashed. Threw the body in the lake. Whoa, Walt! You should writer about that! Dan tells me. Yeah, be loud, be somebody. Thing of it is, one story--not true either--was taken as gospel and the anonymous call Herb made initiated a police investigation. An uncle up the line on U.S. 41, cop at the time, sees the message come over the...sheesh, maybe they had teletype at the time...and another asks, huh, same last name. You know this guy? No, I don't know him! I dropped off a copy of Helter Skelter at Herb's place.
 

Walter Oobleck

keeps coming back...or going, and going, and going
Mar 6, 2013
11,749
34,805
I agree. But I think by going in with the expectation of trying to write a decent body of work without any monetary motives in mind, it's easier to be "true to your own vision," which is what the admiral decided to place on Jim Morrison's grave, "True to his own vision," in Greek.


“An artist's only concern is to shoot for some kind of perfection, and on his own terms, not anyone else's.”
J.D. Salinger, Franny and Zooey

I sent things out way back when. Laughable now when I consider it. Be great if Salinger had a box full of stories we've never read, hey? Raise high the roof beams, carpenters. I'm just looking for some touch. In the past, I exchanged stories with another...I read, he read...couple of people in fact...one just a reader. That was helpful...the other noted items in my story, I did the same. I imagine there's trust issues involved. I remember way back when, a friend long before the Web and I exchanged stories...he had a "c" with a circle around it...copyrighted? Heh! I never asked him though I didn't think it was copyrighted but who knows, maybe. I had one reader here for my second long story...previous post...a few read a portion. Nobody has called the police but I suspect if any other word I've written is any indication, my words are just handful of pennies in the fountain.

There have been others who were not known during their day...Pessoa, although I believe he did publish, he also left much not-so...B. Traven? If it is to be it will be. Didn't Emily also publish during her life...but left a pile behind? So maybe if it's any good or there's anything redeemable in it it finds a life of its own and so be it. All these spaces I've built around. Finding stuff in old walls is a blast...a thin-rubbed dime...the Congressional Record...a piece of leather...a mouse-chewed photo. A cave painting. There's probably a thread or two that attempt to discuss the mechanics of King's stories...could work at it that way...I doubt it would be a bad idea to imitate the man poor attempt though it be.

Too...read words from one, former SEAL, who published his own...good action stories, and he tried to imitate McDonald...John D. He mentioned a tome, the title of which escapes me...did not look for it...possibly "How To Write a Kick-Ass Novel"...and as I recall, this other, the former Seal paraphrasing the "how-to" spoke about reading your favorite writer...examining each line, each word, each paragraph...and then try to write that. Didn't Stendahl "teach" himself to write by coping word-for-word that that was already in print? Trivia I guess.

 

Donald Miller

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2014
86
341
Sarasota

“An artist's only concern is to shoot for some kind of perfection, and on his own terms, not anyone else's.”
J.D. Salinger, Franny and Zooey

I sent things out way back when. Laughable now when I consider it. Be great if Salinger had a box full of stories we've never read, hey? Raise high the roof beams, carpenters. I'm just looking for some touch. In the past, I exchanged stories with another...I read, he read...couple of people in fact...one just a reader. That was helpful...the other noted items in my story, I did the same. I imagine there's trust issues involved. I remember way back when, a friend long before the Web and I exchanged stories...he had a "c" with a circle around it...copyrighted? Heh! I never asked him though I didn't think it was copyrighted but who knows, maybe. I had one reader here for my second long story...previous post...a few read a portion. Nobody has called the police but I suspect if any other word I've written is any indication, my words are just handful of pennies in the fountain.

There have been others who were not known during their day...Pessoa, although I believe he did publish, he also left much not-so...B. Traven? If it is to be it will be. Didn't Emily also publish during her life...but left a pile behind? So maybe if it's any good or there's anything redeemable in it it finds a life of its own and so be it. All these spaces I've built around. Finding stuff in old walls is a blast...a thin-rubbed dime...the Congressional Record...a piece of leather...a mouse-chewed photo. A cave painting. There's probably a thread or two that attempt to discuss the mechanics of King's stories...could work at it that way...I doubt it would be a bad idea to imitate the man poor attempt though it be.

Too...read words from one, former SEAL, who published his own...good action stories, and he tried to imitate McDonald...John D. He mentioned a tome, the title of which escapes me...did not look for it...possibly "How To Write a Kick-Ass Novel"...and as I recall, this other, the former Seal paraphrasing the "how-to" spoke about reading your favorite writer...examining each line, each word, each paragraph...and then try to write that. Didn't Stendahl "teach" himself to write by coping word-for-word that that was already in print? Trivia I guess.
I enjoyed reading both parts of your post, first and second. Did you just write that or was it something you had already written?
 

GNTLGNT

The idiot is IN
Jun 15, 2007
87,651
358,754
62
Cambridge, Ohio
I've put it in a spoiler because long posts are frowned upon here. We like to communicate with bumper stickers and the quick come-back.

I have boxes and file drawers full of manuscripts...some of it is good...most of it I was spinning my wheels. Greyhound lost my first "novel"...got a check from them for $32601...my zip code at the time...s'posed to have been a couple hundred bucks, insurance claim...never saw it again. I think they got it at Fort Knox...passed through there and some soldiers got off the bus, looked out the window, bunch of green duffel-sea-bags on the asphalt, mine probably among them...too, there was a jar of pennies inside and that is always perfect inspiration for a petty thief to foul things. I imagine The White Elephant sitting on a shelf next to the gold.

I've a thread called "Time Passages" that talks about how a writer uses a character's imagination in a story...something I find appealing, the myriad ways that finds expression in the stories I've read. King is good at at, as if Elmore Leonard, others. A Tree, A Rock, A Plum is my second long story. They don't fall into any particular genre...unless it be what you call classic up above...both a kind of bildungsroman. Have considered retitling the second, A Solace of Ripe Plums...from the William Carlos Williams poem. The first, I had people tell me it reads like Catcher in the Rye, a back-handed compliment, considered what people say about Salinger's story...I've always wondered what he thought of the criticism, large and small. The story is 3rd-person, past...limited...very much so...my nose never further than two inches from the dirty glass. Had more than a few tell me it should be 1st-person.

The 2nd is multiple-person, present...I enjoy Faulkner's As I Lay Dying...and I tried to write the story based on that...you get to view events time after time through the eyes of many...though it is still the journey of experience. I don't know how to end it...so I had the town blow up at the end and our hero heading down the dusty trail. Dynamite plant...ole Karl pushing the angel-buggy...Corky doing the Watusi, letting it all hang out. Atlas Powder, out there in Senter, though the names have been changed to protect the innocent. Had one person read an earlier draft of this second...and what floors me is how he wanted to place scenes, bars, restaurants, in our real world. Heh! Gaaaaaaaawd! I just smiled and agreed with him..."yeah, _________ (I can't remember the name I gave the place) that's Al's Diner alright."
Too, there was this once...Padgett tells me, or asks me, why do I get the sense that everything you write really happened? I smiled again...said nothing...but when I got back to the Sanders House, some of the others living there were under the carport. ( Harry told me that one day I'd publish something and it would all make sense...he's passed on now, but he wrote some great stories. Padgett's style is beyond me.)

I proceeded to tell them a number of oral stories...one, about my old man who wanted me to get out of the whoring business. Held him in my arms, his throat slashed. Threw the body in the lake. Whoa, Walt! You should writer about that! Dan tells me. Yeah, be loud, be somebody. Thing of it is, one story--not true either--was taken as gospel and the anonymous call Herb made initiated a police investigation. An uncle up the line on U.S. 41, cop at the time, sees the message come over the...sheesh, maybe they had teletype at the time...and another asks, huh, same last name. You know this guy? No, I don't know him! I dropped off a copy of Helter Skelter at Herb's place.
..."we" doesn't include you Walt..."we" know that...and "bumper stickers" and "quick come backs" happen to be my cup of tea unless I have something I feel is important to commit to cyber-space, otherwise-life's to short...
 

Donald Miller

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2014
86
341
Sarasota
I'd be really interested in this. I've been a reader my whole life, but I'm really new to my own writing. I'd love to be involved in discussions and talk about others' work so I can grow in my own work and maybe help others do the same. Sounds awesome!
One thing I notice about amatuer writers, including myself, is that they don't seem to remember how good writers write. For instance, I was briefly on a writer's group where someone wrote this:

"Janie sat cross-legged amid the lush patch of spring clover filling the wide and spacious fields behind her home. The thick carpet of tri leaved green, topped with caps of whitish fluff seemed an island of softness upon which she could float, weightless and spry. Sparsely dotted with sunlit bursts of buttery gold coreopsis and the odd, yet striking appeal of the vibrant, royal lavender mallow blooms, her island oasis appeared to her most wondrous and fine."

I suggested shortening it to:

"Janie lived on an island oasis, wondrous and fine."

When I left the group -- I wasn't banned from it -- three people clicked the thumbs up.
Ha! Well, i can't stand those writer's groups anyway; you know, where they spend most of their time congratulating each other on how great they are.
 

Demeter

Well-Known Member
Apr 23, 2008
538
1,424
I think it's important to experiment with writing, to find what suits you best, what genre, what themes. For me, having a blog was a way of discovering what genre I was most attracted to. It was also a way to keep me writing because even if I have good ideas (well, good from my perspective, anyway) for stories, I tend to procrastinate. A LOT. "Tomorrow" always sounds better than "today".

I'll read almost anything but when it comes to writing I find myself leaning towards the dark and deep waters of horror, mystery and fantasy. Whatever I write tends to veer in this direction, somehow.
Also, I really like flash fiction. It's quick, short, and has to be made all the more interesting because of the word limit. That's like a cup of strong coffee for the sleepy mind, and a good exercise in writing.
 
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