Forgetting and Being Invisible

[preciousroy]

I recently finished Insomnia for a second time and a couple things caught my mind about this book and IT.

Spoiler

Ralph and Lois begin to forget everything they endured after saving the day. They occasionally feel vague pieces of memories but nothing they can ever seize on. Only when it comes time for Ralph to fulfill his promise do he and Lois begin to remember everything.

This got me to thinking about the Losers and how they all forgot what they went through as children and how they forgot again after prevailing against Pennywise as adults (Mike included this time.) Most readers (myself included) attributed this "forgetting" to the mysterious magic of the entity known as Pennywise, or maybe the way Pennywise's magic had an effect on the town. Was something else responsible for making the Losers forget? Pennywise certainly wasn't responsible for making Ralph and Lois forget. There is also the voice that was never explained in IT that Bill hears near the end of the book commending him for his victory. This also begs the question about whether the Losers' good fortune as adults came as a result of Pennywise's magic as well.

Another parallel I noticed with Derry was when it occurred to Ralph that the senior citizens in town were almost invisible. If you didn't look you wouldn't even know they were there. Yet they lived their lives and socialized and got around Derry entertaining themselves in their own sort of community. Kind of like the way the kids in Derry were invisible and how that invisibility allowed Pennywise to hunt them like prey. Invisibility that allowed Henry to go on unchecked by any sort of authority until it proved useful for Pennywise to scapegoat him.

I also wondered about Atropos' lair. I can believe Clotho and Lachesis were there for a purpose but Atropos had a home in Derry. Ralph noticed how expansive the "warehouse" underground seemed to be when he was inside the lair. Did that space go on forever and allow Atropos to emerge anywhere like some sort of closet boogeyman? I guess I'm assuming astral beings would move like humans but still, it's awfully convenient that Atropos would have his lair right there in the middle of Derry. His job is to cut the balloon strings of people in service of the Random, correct? Does this mean there are more Little Bald Doctors around the world? It never says in the book that those three are the only three but it was the feeling I got while reading.

As an aside, I don't believe IT was a female. Yes, IT had laid eggs but remember in the scene where Beverly revisits her home? Pennywise says something along the lines of "My fadder was my madder" leading me to believe IT is male AND female.

 

[Dana Jean]

I recently finished Insomnia for a second time and a couple things caught my mind about this book and IT.

Spoiler

Ralph and Lois begin to forget everything they endured after saving the day. They occasionally feel vague pieces of memories but nothing they can ever seize on. Only when it comes time for Ralph to fulfill his promise do he and Lois begin to remember everything.

This got me to thinking about the Losers and how they all forgot what they went through as children and how they forgot again after prevailing against Pennywise as adults (Mike included this time.) Most readers (myself included) attributed this "forgetting" to the mysterious magic of the entity known as Pennywise, or maybe the way Pennywise's magic had an effect on the town. Was something else responsible for making the Losers forget? Pennywise certainly wasn't responsible for making Ralph and Lois forget. There is also the voice that was never explained in IT that Bill hears near the end of the book commending him for his victory. This also begs the question about whether the Losers' good fortune as adults came as a result of Pennywise's magic as well.

Another parallel I noticed with Derry was when it occurred to Ralph that the senior citizens in town were almost invisible. If you didn't look you wouldn't even know they were there. Yet they lived their lives and socialized and got around Derry entertaining themselves in their own sort of community. Kind of like the way the kids in Derry were invisible and how that invisibility allowed Pennywise to hunt them like prey. Invisibility that allowed Henry to go on unchecked by any sort of authority until it proved useful for Pennywise to scapegoat him.

I also wondered about Atropos' lair. I can believe Clotho and Lachesis were there for a purpose but Atropos had a home in Derry. Ralph noticed how expansive the "warehouse" underground seemed to be when he was inside the lair. Did that space go on forever and allow Atropos to emerge anywhere like some sort of closet boogeyman? I guess I'm assuming astral beings would move like humans but still, it's awfully convenient that Atropos would have his lair right there in the middle of Derry. His job is to cut the balloon strings of people in service of the Random, correct? Does this mean there are more Little Bald Doctors around the world? It never says in the book that those three are the only three but it was the feeling I got while reading.

As an aside, I don't believe IT was a female. Yes, IT had laid eggs but remember in the scene where Beverly revisits her home? Pennywise says something along the lines of "My fadder was my madder" leading me to believe IT is male AND female.

Good thoughts on this.

Haven't read these books in a long time so can't intelligently answer your questions, but I will say, Insomnia was the second book to make me cry. I loved Ralph Roberts.

 

[mal]

Good insight, and interesting. Thanks preciousroy!

 

[Spideyman]

Very interesting thoughts!

 

[wolfphoenix]

I recently finished Insomnia for a second time and a couple things caught my mind about this book and IT.

Spoiler

Ralph and Lois begin to forget everything they endured after saving the day. They occasionally feel vague pieces of memories but nothing they can ever seize on. Only when it comes time for Ralph to fulfill his promise do he and Lois begin to remember everything.

This got me to thinking about the Losers and how they all forgot what they went through as children and how they forgot again after prevailing against Pennywise as adults (Mike included this time.) Most readers (myself included) attributed this "forgetting" to the mysterious magic of the entity known as Pennywise, or maybe the way Pennywise's magic had an effect on the town. Was something else responsible for making the Losers forget? Pennywise certainly wasn't responsible for making Ralph and Lois forget. There is also the voice that was never explained in IT that Bill hears near the end of the book commending him for his victory. This also begs the question about whether the Losers' good fortune as adults came as a result of Pennywise's magic as well.

Another parallel I noticed with Derry was when it occurred to Ralph that the senior citizens in town were almost invisible. If you didn't look you wouldn't even know they were there. Yet they lived their lives and socialized and got around Derry entertaining themselves in their own sort of community. Kind of like the way the kids in Derry were invisible and how that invisibility allowed Pennywise to hunt them like prey. Invisibility that allowed Henry to go on unchecked by any sort of authority until it proved useful for Pennywise to scapegoat him.

I also wondered about Atropos' lair. I can believe Clotho and Lachesis were there for a purpose but Atropos had a home in Derry. Ralph noticed how expansive the "warehouse" underground seemed to be when he was inside the lair. Did that space go on forever and allow Atropos to emerge anywhere like some sort of closet boogeyman? I guess I'm assuming astral beings would move like humans but still, it's awfully convenient that Atropos would have his lair right there in the middle of Derry. His job is to cut the balloon strings of people in service of the Random, correct? Does this mean there are more Little Bald Doctors around the world? It never says in the book that those three are the only three but it was the feeling I got while reading.

As an aside, I don't believe IT was a female. Yes, IT had laid eggs but remember in the scene where Beverly revisits her home? Pennywise says something along the lines of "My fadder was my madder" leading me to believe IT is male AND female.

i like ur observations/thinking, looking 4ward 2 more + posting

 

[GNTLGNT]

I recently finished Insomnia for a second time and a couple things caught my mind about this book and IT.

Spoiler

Ralph and Lois begin to forget everything they endured after saving the day. They occasionally feel vague pieces of memories but nothing they can ever seize on. Only when it comes time for Ralph to fulfill his promise do he and Lois begin to remember everything.

This got me to thinking about the Losers and how they all forgot what they went through as children and how they forgot again after prevailing against Pennywise as adults (Mike included this time.) Most readers (myself included) attributed this "forgetting" to the mysterious magic of the entity known as Pennywise, or maybe the way Pennywise's magic had an effect on the town. Was something else responsible for making the Losers forget? Pennywise certainly wasn't responsible for making Ralph and Lois forget. There is also the voice that was never explained in IT that Bill hears near the end of the book commending him for his victory. This also begs the question about whether the Losers' good fortune as adults came as a result of Pennywise's magic as well.

Another parallel I noticed with Derry was when it occurred to Ralph that the senior citizens in town were almost invisible. If you didn't look you wouldn't even know they were there. Yet they lived their lives and socialized and got around Derry entertaining themselves in their own sort of community. Kind of like the way the kids in Derry were invisible and how that invisibility allowed Pennywise to hunt them like prey. Invisibility that allowed Henry to go on unchecked by any sort of authority until it proved useful for Pennywise to scapegoat him.

I also wondered about Atropos' lair. I can believe Clotho and Lachesis were there for a purpose but Atropos had a home in Derry. Ralph noticed how expansive the "warehouse" underground seemed to be when he was inside the lair. Did that space go on forever and allow Atropos to emerge anywhere like some sort of closet boogeyman? I guess I'm assuming astral beings would move like humans but still, it's awfully convenient that Atropos would have his lair right there in the middle of Derry. His job is to cut the balloon strings of people in service of the Random, correct? Does this mean there are more Little Bald Doctors around the world? It never says in the book that those three are the only three but it was the feeling I got while reading.

As an aside, I don't believe IT was a female. Yes, IT had laid eggs but remember in the scene where Beverly revisits her home? Pennywise says something along the lines of "My fadder was my madder" leading me to believe IT is male AND female.

....I think this is the "voice" of The Tower that coaxes the amnesia and provides for the invisibility.....the soul of the multiverse which I've always thought had sentience.....

 

[preciousroy]

Insomnia was the second book to make me cry. I loved Ralph Roberts.

Even though we were able to see it coming with Ralph it still managed to slice deep. What was the first?

Good insight, and interesting. Thanks preciousroy!

Very interesting thoughts!

i like ur observations/thinking, looking 4ward 2 more + posting

Thanks very much.

....I think this is the "voice" of The Tower that coaxes the amnesia and provides for the invisibility.....the soul of the multiverse which I've always thought had sentience.....

Nice take. I've come to believe that it was some sort of kindness that the Losers were able (or allowed) to forget what they went through, even if it ultimately separated them from their bonds to each other. In Ralph's case his sacrifice was allowed to be remembered. Only he and Lois were aware of the events that had been set into motion when it came time for him to hold his end of the promise, but no one forgot that he saved a life that day.

 

[Doc Creed]

I recently finished Insomnia for a second time and a couple things caught my mind about this book and IT.

Spoiler

Ralph and Lois begin to forget everything they endured after saving the day. They occasionally feel vague pieces of memories but nothing they can ever seize on. Only when it comes time for Ralph to fulfill his promise do he and Lois begin to remember everything.

This got me to thinking about the Losers and how they all forgot what they went through as children and how they forgot again after prevailing against Pennywise as adults (Mike included this time.) Most readers (myself included) attributed this "forgetting" to the mysterious magic of the entity known as Pennywise, or maybe the way Pennywise's magic had an effect on the town. Was something else responsible for making the Losers forget? Pennywise certainly wasn't responsible for making Ralph and Lois forget. There is also the voice that was never explained in IT that Bill hears near the end of the book commending him for his victory. This also begs the question about whether the Losers' good fortune as adults came as a result of Pennywise's magic as well.

Another parallel I noticed with Derry was when it occurred to Ralph that the senior citizens in town were almost invisible. If you didn't look you wouldn't even know they were there. Yet they lived their lives and socialized and got around Derry entertaining themselves in their own sort of community. Kind of like the way the kids in Derry were invisible and how that invisibility allowed Pennywise to hunt them like prey. Invisibility that allowed Henry to go on unchecked by any sort of authority until it proved useful for Pennywise to scapegoat him.

I also wondered about Atropos' lair. I can believe Clotho and Lachesis were there for a purpose but Atropos had a home in Derry. Ralph noticed how expansive the "warehouse" underground seemed to be when he was inside the lair. Did that space go on forever and allow Atropos to emerge anywhere like some sort of closet boogeyman? I guess I'm assuming astral beings would move like humans but still, it's awfully convenient that Atropos would have his lair right there in the middle of Derry. His job is to cut the balloon strings of people in service of the Random, correct? Does this mean there are more Little Bald Doctors around the world? It never says in the book that those three are the only three but it was the feeling I got while reading.

As an aside, I don't believe IT was a female. Yes, IT had laid eggs but remember in the scene where Beverly revisits her home? Pennywise says something along the lines of "My fadder was my madder" leading me to believe IT is male AND female.

I figure The Turtle helped The Losers forget. Bill (or Mike?) once said, "The Turtle can't help us now", which implies he helped them at other times. I agree that the invisibility phenomenon is probably attributed to Pennywise.

 

[Dana Jean]

Even though we were able to see it coming with Ralph it still managed to slice deep. What was the first?




Thanks very much.


Nice take. I've come to believe that it was some sort of kindness that the Losers were able (or allowed) to forget what they went through, even if it ultimately separated them from their bonds to each other. In Ralph's case his sacrifice was allowed to be remembered. Only he and Lois were aware of the events that had been set into motion when it came time for him to hold his end of the promise, but no one forgot that he saved a life that day.

The Talisman

 

[preciousroy]

I figure The Turtle helped The Losers forget. Bill (or Mike?) once said, "The Turtle can't help us now", which implies he helped them at other times. I agree that the invisibility phenomenon is probably attributed to Pennywise.

I'm not sure I remember that line exactly but that could definitely be the cause. But would only explain what happened prior to 1985. Whatever caused the Losers to forget as adults would have to have been something or someone different, assuming the magic wasn't still in play. I believe it could have been.

Maybe senior citizens were Pennywise's second pick. How does that song go? "Children are innocents, teenagers f*cked up in the head, adults are even more f*cked up, and elderlies are like children"

The Talisman

I haven't read that in almost 20 years. Need to. I'm finishing Nightmares and Dreamscapes because I thought I never finished it but every single story is so familiar that I must have. I think I'm going to read Revival next.

 

[preciousroy]

While trying to find more information on Insomnia I came across a piece that said that in Lovecraftian fiction encounters with Gods often left humans with amnesia and no knowledge of the event. Perhaps I have missed many angles by being uninformed.

 

[wolfphoenix]

Even though we were able to see it coming with Ralph it still managed to slice deep. What was the first?




Thanks very much.


Nice take. I've come to believe that it was some sort of kindness that the Losers were able (or allowed) to forget what they went through, even if it ultimately separated them from their bonds to each other. In Ralph's case his sacrifice was allowed to be remembered. Only he and Lois were aware of the events that had been set into motion when it came time for him to hold his end of the promise, but no one forgot that he saved a life that day.

In "It", Mike Hanlon was the only one who remained in Derry, and he was the only one of the Losers who remembered the events of their childhood. Wasn't he? It's been a long time since I read this book, did he begin to remember again when "It started to happen again" ?
I think there is many reasons why or causes for people to forget certain events in stories like these.

 

[preciousroy]

In "It", Mike Hanlon was the only one who remained in Derry, and he was the only one of the Losers who remembered the events of their childhood. Wasn't he? It's been a long time since I read this book, did he begin to remember again when "It started to happen again" ?
I think there is many reasons why or causes for people to forget certain events in stories like these.

I don't actually remember the details on Mike Hanlon. I would have to read the book again. I have a bad habit of mixing up the miniseries details with book details. I don't remember if Mike remembered while everyone else forgot or if he remembered at the same time the others began to.

I did notice something in Nightmares and Dreamscapes that reminded me of Insomnia. It could be nothing but in My Pretty Pony the grandfather in the story describes the way the passage of time changes around you as you get older. One stage of time he calls "short time". Atropos called Ralph and Lois "short timers". In the case of Insomnia I assumed it just meant that humans have incredibly short lifespans in comparison to the bald doctors. I don't know that it means anything but it caught my attention.

 

[wolfphoenix]

I don't actually remember the details on Mike Hanlon. I would have to read the book again. I have a bad habit of mixing up the miniseries details with book details. I don't remember if Mike remembered while everyone else forgot or if he remembered at the same time the others began to.

I did notice something in Nightmares and Dreamscapes that reminded me of Insomnia. It could be nothing but in My Pretty Pony the grandfather in the story describes the way the passage of time changes around you as you get older. One stage of time he calls "short time". Atropos called Ralph and Lois "short timers". In the case of Insomnia I assumed it just meant that humans have incredibly short lifespans in comparison to the bald doctors. I don't know that it means anything but it caught my attention.

Good connecting there, I always liked that story "My Pretty Pony" but had forgotten that particular detail.
"Nightmares and Dreamscapes" was a great collection.

 

[GNTLGNT]

I don't actually remember the details on Mike Hanlon. I would have to read the book again. I have a bad habit of mixing up the miniseries details with book details. I don't remember if Mike remembered while everyone else forgot or if he remembered at the same time the others began to.

I did notice something in Nightmares and Dreamscapes that reminded me of Insomnia. It could be nothing but in My Pretty Pony the grandfather in the story describes the way the passage of time changes around you as you get older. One stage of time he calls "short time". Atropos called Ralph and Lois "short timers". In the case of Insomnia I assumed it just meant that humans have incredibly short lifespans in comparison to the bald doctors. I don't know that it means anything but it caught my attention.

...another phrase that Steve carried across stories....and if I recall, Mike remembered and kept a weather eye on everything that occurred since they were kids....

 

[wolfphoenix]

...another phrase that Steve carried across stories....and if I recall, Mike remembered and kept a weather eye on everything that occurred since they were kids....

Ooooo......yeah, I'd forgotten about that too. Thanks for reminding Gentle.

 

[GNTLGNT]

Ooooo......yeah, I'd forgotten about that too. Thanks for reminding Gentle.

......I may be mis-remembering, but he seemed to be the lone soldier left with an intact recall from the earlier battle....and by that grace, he was able to trip the mental triggers of the other Losers when old greasepaint face started his shenanigans again......

 

[wolfphoenix]

In "It", Mike Hanlon was the only one who remained in Derry, and he was the only one of the Losers who remembered the events of their childhood. Wasn't he? It's been a long time since I read this book, did he begin to remember again when "It started to happen again" ?
I think there is many reasons why or causes for people to forget certain events in stories like these.

......I may be mis-remembering, but he seemed to be the lone soldier left with an intact recall from the earlier battle....and by that grace, he was able to trip the mental triggers of the other Losers when old greasepaint face started his shenanigans again......

I was thinking the same thing, and thought I might not be remembering 100%.
Mike was the only one who stayed in Derry, and he rallied the others when 'the time' came.
I thought he remembered everything all along through the years,
but second guessed myself, and thought maybe he started to remember prior events after "IT" started to happen again.
His memory triggered by the new killings.
But I think I was right the first time ...hope that makes sense....lol, my typing needs to keep up with my thinking

 

[GNTLGNT]

I was thinking the same thing, and thought I might not be remembering 100%.
Mike was the only one who stayed in Derry, and he rallied the others when 'the time' came.
I thought he remembered everything all along through the years,
but second guessed myself, and thought maybe he started to remember prior events after "IT" started to happen again.
His memory triggered by the new killings.
But I think I was right the first time ...hope that makes sense....lol, my typing needs to keep up with my thinking

....you right Missy, you right!.....

 

[wolfphoenix]

Thank you Gentle.
Your posts OFTEN help me to get out what I'm thinking and sometimes have a hard time putting in words.