Game of Thrones SPOILERS

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Lord Tyrion

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Oct 24, 2013
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I think you answered your own question, Lord. Since that young boy was involved it most definitely had to do with him making the alliance. Hence the use of the word traitor where it happened. You think Stannis is dead as well?

I've been discussing this with other people, and the killing of Jon Snow still doesn't make sense to me. He had already shown he wanted to build an alliance with the wildlings before he was elected Commander. He went to meet with Mance by himself and he told the Watch what he was doing.

I've read up to book three, and it makes a lot more sense given the events of the books.
 

Lord Tyrion

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Oct 24, 2013
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I think you answered your own question, Lord. Since that young boy was involved it most definitely had to do with him making the alliance. Hence the use of the word traitor where it happened. You think Stannis is dead as well?

I would be very surprised if Stannis is still alive. I don't think Brienne would let him live given everything that's happened.
 

Out of Order

Sign of the Times
Feb 9, 2011
29,007
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New Hampster
I've been discussing this with other people, and the killing of Jon Snow still doesn't make sense to me. He had already shown he wanted to build an alliance with the wildlings before he was elected Commander. He went to meet with Mance by himself and he told the Watch what he was doing.

I've read up to book three, and it makes a lot more sense given the events of the books.

Remember that the former commander of the wall was against the alliance. So was the kid (who had his family killed by wildling raiders). They both took part in Snow's murder and the others were perhaps against it too. Remember the wall is all about tradition and duty so what Snow did could be seen as treason punishable by death. Not to fear though the Red Woman will bring him back....
 

AnnaMarie

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Feb 16, 2012
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Other
Does anyone think
Sansa and Reek actually jumped to their death? The camera did not pan straight down. I think they had a soft landing, possibly water.

I was really hoping
Cersei would be welcomed home by her smiling daughter-in-law. I think Magaery (is that the right name?) is still locked up...but I just thought it would have been a fitting finale to her parade.
 

skimom2

Just moseyin' through...
Oct 9, 2013
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Well...

That last scene really pissed me off. Why did that happen? That didn't make sense. Why would Jon Snow be voted as Lord Commander and then get killed? Why didn't they kill him before? Was it because he went beyond the wall to bring back the wildlings? Huh? I understand the other Starks being killed off, but that didn't make sense.

Can someone explain?
I haven't seen this season (and don't worry about spoilers--there's just no way of avoiding them these days), but it did make sense in the books. Have you read book 5? I don't want to spoil THOSE for YOU, if you haven't.
 

notebookgirl

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Oct 8, 2013
858
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Somewhere over the Rainbow
I've been discussing this with other people, and the killing of Jon Snow still doesn't make sense to me. He had already shown he wanted to build an alliance with the wildlings before he was elected Commander. He went to meet with Mance by himself and he told the Watch what he was doing.

I've read up to book three, and it makes a lot more sense given the events of the books.
A lot of things didn't make sense this season. That's why GOT is so wacky. But, alas, I still love it.
 

Lord Tyrion

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Oct 24, 2013
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6,257
Remember that the former commander of the wall was against the alliance. So was the kid (who had his family killed by wildling raiders). They both took part in Snow's murder and the others were perhaps against it too. Remember the wall is all about tradition and duty so what Snow did could be seen as treason punishable by death. Not to fear though the Red Woman will bring him back....

I haven't seen this season (and don't worry about spoilers--there's just no way of avoiding them these days), but it did make sense in the books. Have you read book 5? I don't want to spoil THOSE for YOU, if you haven't.

I've read up to book three and I've watched every TV episode.

I think there are too many inconsistencies on the TV show, which is why I don't buy the killing of Jon Snow. There are big differences.

TV Show Spoilers up to last night's finale:
  1. Jon Snow led the party to avenge Lord Mormont and stop his killers from spreading info about the Wall's poor defenses - Shows Jon Snow's commitment to the Watch
  2. Jon Snow kills a lot of wildlings at the battle of the Wall - Shows he's not a traitor and that he will kill wildlings
  3. Jon Snow leaves the Wall after the battle to negotiate a truce with the wildlings - The Watch knows Snow wanted a truce
  4. Sam speaks up for Jon Snow at the election of the Lord Commander, Jon Snow wins based on his commitment to the Watch- Knowing Jon Snow had already wanted a truce with the wildlings, he's elected Lord Commander by the Watch
  5. Snow leads a party of brothers of the Watch north of the Wall to retrieve more wildlings at Hardhome. The wights show up and there is a huge battle - More men of the Watch know about the walkers and why the alliance with the wildlings is needed
In the books, the killing of Jon Snow makes a lot more sense from reading just the first three books.
Book Spoilers up to book 3:
  1. Lord Mormont dies, but Snow doesn't lead a party to take out his killers - Snow doesn't get prove his commitment to the Watch
  2. Jon Snow doesn't fight the wildlings at the Battle of the Wall because he's injured - The Watch never sees Snow take out wildlings (my memory is a bit fuzzy on this one)
  3. Jon Snow is sent to Mance by Janos Slynt to "negotiate" terms with Mance, when he is actually ordered to kill Mance. Snow doesn't kill Mance because Stannis shows up - The Watch may think Snow didn't kill Mance out of loyalty to the wildlings. This is a huge difference with the Show.
  4. Sam convinces the Watch to elect Snow by lying to the two leading candidates that Stannis is going to appoint their opponent and that they should vote for Snow instead - The Watch elects Snow based on Sam's lie
  5. (Book four/five spoiler) The battle with the wights at Hardhome doesn't happen - The Watch doesn't get to find out about the wights and why the alliance with the wildlings is important

I haven't read books four and five, so I can't comment on those specifically, but based on what I've read so far, the killing of Jon Snow makes more sense in the books. The other big deaths that have happened before were shocking, but they made sense in hindsight. This one just doesn't make sense to me.
 
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Lord Tyrion

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2013
1,582
6,257
Does anyone think
Sansa and Reek actually jumped to their death? The camera did not pan straight down. I think they had a soft landing, possibly water.

I was really hoping
Cersei would be welcomed home by her smiling daughter-in-law. I think Magaery (is that the right name?) is still locked up...but I just thought it would have been a fitting finale to her parade.

I think Theon and Sansa both knew that the snow is high enough to save them. They have lived in the North a long time, so they would know. I think they live.

I'm curious to see what happens between the Tyrells and Lannisters after this.
 

Sigmund

Waiting in Uber.
Jan 3, 2010
13,979
44,046
In your mirror.
:grin:

I can't go anywhere on the net without seeing anger, tears and stress over the finale. I read the articles but I don't really know what's going on.

I thought the crud had hit the fan ... last week?

A young woman was put to death with her fathers consent?

Sounds like a really cool show and I'm glad all of you are enjoying it.
 

skimom2

Just moseyin' through...
Oct 9, 2013
15,683
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USA
I've read up to book three and I've watched every TV episode.

I think there are too many inconsistencies on the TV show, which is why I don't buy the killing of Jon Snow. There are big differences.

TV Show Spoilers up to last night's finale:
  1. Jon Snow led the party to avenge Lord Mormont and stop his killers from spreading info about the Wall's poor defenses - Shows Jon Snow's commitment to the Watch
  2. Jon Snow kills a lot of wildlings at the battle of the Wall - Shows he's not a traitor and that he will kill wildlings
  3. Jon Snow leaves the Wall after the battle to negotiate a truce with the wildlings - The Watch knows Snow wanted a truce
  4. Sam speaks up for Jon Snow at the election of the Lord Commander, Jon Snow wins based on his commitment to the Watch- Knowing Jon Snow had already wanted a truce with the wildlings, he's elected Lord Commander by the Watch
  5. Snow leads a party of brothers of the Watch north of the Wall to retrieve more wildlings at Hardhome. The wights show up and there is a huge battle - More men of the Watch know about the walkers and why the alliance with the wildlings is needed
In the books, the killing of Jon Snow makes a lot more sense from reading just the first three books.
Book Spoilers up to book 3:
  1. Lord Mormont dies, but Snow doesn't lead a party to take out his killers - Snow doesn't get prove his commitment to the Watch
  2. Jon Snow doesn't fight the wildlings at the Battle of the Wall because he's injured - The Watch never sees Snow take out wildlings (my memory is a bit fuzzy on this one)
  3. Jon Snow is sent to Mance by Janos Slynt to "negotiate" terms with Mance, when he is actually ordered to kill Mance. Snow doesn't kill Mance because Stannis shows up - The Watch may think Snow didn't kill Mance out of loyalty to the wildlings. This is a huge difference with the Show.
  4. Sam convinces the Watch to elect Snow by lying to the two leading candidates that Stannis is going to appoint their opponent and that they should vote for Snow instead - The Watch elects Snow based on Sam's lie
  5. (Book four/five spoiler) The battle with the wights at Hardhome doesn't happen - The Watch doesn't get to find out about the wights and why the alliance with the wildlings is important

I haven't read books four and five, so I can't comment on those specifically, but based on what I've read so far, the killing of Jon Snow makes more sense in the books. The other big deaths that have happened before were shocking, but they made sense in hindsight. This one just doesn't make sense to me.
I've read the books a couple of times, so no problem with spoilers :) In the books, what happened makes sense mainly because
the depth of animosity between the Watch and the wildings is never really explored in the TV show. They're presented as more of a nuisance than anything. In the books, it's really clear that they're dangerous and that their raids south have cost many lives, Watch and civilian. They are LOATHED. When Jon makes his deal with them, his fate is set, as far as many of his brothers are concerned. There is a strong minority that don't trust Snow at all, partly because of his birth, partly because of his actions, and partly because of how quickly he moved up after essentially crapping on the vows he'd taken, in the company of their worst enemies.

Having said that, my impression is that the book was more ambiguous than the show as to whether he's mostly dead or slightly alive (to steal egregiously from Miracle Max :D).

As the show diverges farther and farther from the books, I get less and less interested in it. Martin's meticulous plotting and world building might make him a slow writer, but it also makes his books incredibly absorbing. The show has always had more flash than substance, but it seems to be getting worse last season and this one. Too bad.
 

Lord Tyrion

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2013
1,582
6,257
I've read the books a couple of times, so no problem with spoilers :) In the books, what happened makes sense mainly because
the depth of animosity between the Watch and the wildings is never really explored in the TV show. They're presented as more of a nuisance than anything. In the books, it's really clear that they're dangerous and that their raids south have cost many lives, Watch and civilian. They are LOATHED. When Jon makes his deal with them, his fate is set, as far as many of his brothers are concerned. There is a strong minority that don't trust Snow at all, partly because of his birth, partly because of his actions, and partly because of how quickly he moved up after essentially crapping on the vows he'd taken, in the company of their worst enemies.

Having said that, my impression is that the book was more ambiguous than the show as to whether he's mostly dead or slightly alive (to steal egregiously from Miracle Max :D).

As the show diverges farther and farther from the books, I get less and less interested in it. Martin's meticulous plotting and world building might make him a slow writer, but it also makes his books incredibly absorbing. The show has always had more flash than substance, but it seems to be getting worse last season and this one. Too bad.

Every objection I have with Jon Snow's death was dealt with by the book material. Everything that happened in the book, from what I've read so far, points to Snow getting stabbed. On the TV show, it doesn't make sense. They wanted to show Jon as heroic by fighting at the Wall, taking out Mormont's killers and fighting at Hardborne, but it takes away the justification of the Watch killing Snow.

The hatred between the Watch and wildlings isn't really stressed on the show. Yes, they hate each other, but we don't see how bad the relationship is on the show when they are united. In fact, I thought the battle at Hardborne would have united the Watch and wildlings. That battle would have also shown the Watch how much of a threat the wights are. This is more reason why Snow's death on the TV show doesn't make sense. It felt like a rushed plot line to kill another Stark.

I think Snow is definitely dead. However, I think he will be brought back to life. On the show, we know that Melisandra's religion can bring people back to life. We've seen people come back from the dead and even more so in the books. Plot wise, the battle in at the Wall has nothing going for it without Jon Snow. There is no interesting character there that can hold the audience's attention. Bran could be brought in, but I don't know if they're going to make him an integral part of the Wall storyline. Bringing back Snow might be over the top, but in terms of the plot, it makes sense.
 

skimom2

Just moseyin' through...
Oct 9, 2013
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USA
Every objection I have with Jon Snow's death was dealt with by the book material. Everything that happened in the book, from what I've read so far, points to Snow getting stabbed. On the TV show, it doesn't make sense. They wanted to show Jon as heroic by fighting at the Wall, taking out Mormont's killers and fighting at Hardborne, but it takes away the justification of the Watch killing Snow.

The hatred between the Watch and wildlings isn't really stressed on the show. Yes, they hate each other, but we don't see how bad the relationship is on the show when they are united. In fact, I thought the battle at Hardborne would have united the Watch and wildlings. That battle would have also shown the Watch how much of a threat the wights are. This is more reason why Snow's death on the TV show doesn't make sense. It felt like a rushed plot line to kill another Stark.

I think Snow is definitely dead. However, I think he will be brought back to life. On the show, we know that Melisandra's religion can bring people back to life. We've seen people come back from the dead and even more so in the books. Plot wise, the battle in at the Wall has nothing going for it without Jon Snow. There is no interesting character there that can hold the audience's attention. Bran could be brought in, but I don't know if they're going to make him an integral part of the Wall storyline. Bringing back Snow might be over the top, but in terms of the plot, it makes sense.
in the book, you 'see' him get stabbed and fall, but then it stops. No definitive death. I don't think he'll die in the books--just a feeling. He'll be greviously injured, but not DEAD. He's right down the hall from a room full of his supporters.