Game of Thrones SPOILERS

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Lord Tyrion

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Oct 24, 2013
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Lord Tyrion

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in the book, you 'see' him get stabbed and fall, but then it stops. No definitive death. I don't think he'll die in the books--just a feeling. He'll be greviously injured, but not DEAD. He's right down the hall from a room full of his supporters.

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:)
 
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Mr Nobody

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I saw the finale to S5 last night (it premieres 9pm Mondays here), and I agree with Lord Tyrion
re: the difference between John Snow's apparent death in the books versus the TV series treatment
.

If you've not read the book up to the last one, you may want to ignore this bit, but:
The biggest gripe for me, though, was the scenes around Winterfell. It's been a while since I the books now, but iirc Theon/Reek leapt the wall (alone?) and linked up with Stannis, providing intel that, it seemed, would lead to Stannis capturing Winterfell and defeating the Boltons.
Now, there's no doubt that Stannis was going to die and deserved to after what he did to his daughter - though that in itself was pretty poor; even at the time I said all he'd done was to demoralize his own troops on the eve of battle, so the news of half his army deserting...well, Sherlock, you know the score...

Back to series-not-book stuff, and initially it looked like the series was going to be a triumph, but I've been struggling since around the mid-point.
The rape of Sansa was, IMO, gratuitous. It undid all the progress of her character and taught us nothing about Ramsay or Reek that we didn't already know and couldn't have been implied via the simpler device of Reek closing the door on the viewer and us seeing a tearful Sansa next time out. We know the type of man Ramsay is and Sansa's first encounter was never going to be pleasant for her. It was also inevitable from the moment she said she would marry the psycho, so did we need to see it? No, we did not.
On the other hand, the burning of Shireen was not gratuitous. It was hard to watch, certainly, but Stannis had a motive for it and it showed how his conviction and devotion to his new religion was both quieter and deeper than that of his apparently more devout wife. Yes, it was also allied to his desire for power to an extent, but...

All in all, after this season I have no idea who you're supposed to root for anymore. The White Walkers, perhaps?
Oh, and Hardhome...what's the point in fleshing out a character and then killing her off? Why are the wights in such a state, anyway? They never used to be. But overall...yeah, nice waste of Birgitte Hjort Sørensen. Assuming she turns up again, she's not going to have many lines, is she?

It turned out to be a pretty uneven season in the end, IMO, particularly because you could see where the original material was ending and the Hollywood-indoctrinated screenwriters were taking over. If any more plot turns had been telegraphed, they might as well have broadcast in Morse.

A final thought: I read that Benioff and Weiss were 'cackling like schoolboys' over a scene from the books that was a favourite of their and had to be included. This turned out to be the rape scene mentioned above. As distasteful as I found that scene, I thought their approach and attitude was sickening. Might want to check those moral compasses, lads. They seem to have gone a bit wobbly.
 

Out of Order

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Who to root for, Mr Nobody? Well, my favorite from the very beginning of course................

kahlessi-dragons-thumb.jpg

Disagree about
the rape of Sansa Stark. Shocking has been and continues to be the cornerstone of the series. Closing the door on it wasn't even in the cards.
 

AnnaMarie

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Feb 16, 2012
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Disagree about
the rape of Sansa Stark. Shocking has been and continues to be the cornerstone of the series. Closing the door on it wasn't even in the cards.

Personally, I thought that scene was
very powerful. By showing it through the eyes of Theon/Reek we see a humane side of him. It makes what he does afterwards believable. I also think as far as film goes, seeing it through his eyes was more powerful than watching Sansa and Ramsy directly.
 
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Lord Tyrion

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Oct 24, 2013
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I saw the finale to S5 last night (it premieres 9pm Mondays here), and I agree with Lord Tyrion
re: the difference between John Snow's apparent death in the books versus the TV series treatment
.

The more I think about the less it makes sense. When I read books four and five, I get the feeling it's going to make less sense.

Back to series-not-book stuff, and initially it looked like the series was going to be a triumph, but I've been struggling since around the mid-point.
The rape of Sansa was, IMO, gratuitous. It undid all the progress of her character and taught us nothing about Ramsay or Reek that we didn't already know and couldn't have been implied via the simpler device of Reek closing the door on the viewer and us seeing a tearful Sansa next time out. We know the type of man Ramsay is and Sansa's first encounter was never going to be pleasant for her. It was also inevitable from the moment she said she would marry the psycho, so did we need to see it? No, we did not.
On the other hand, the burning of Shireen was not gratuitous. It was hard to watch, certainly, but Stannis had a motive for it and it showed how his conviction and devotion to his new religion was both quieter and deeper than that of his apparently more devout wife. Yes, it was also allied to his desire for power to an extent, but...

The rape of Sansa was a bridge too far. I think the show runners underestimate the impact they have with those scenes. The same thing happened last season with Cersei and Jamie.

As for Shireen, it made sense in terms of the plot, but it still felt a bit unearned. The way it was shot felt a bit rushed to me.

All in all, after this season I have no idea who you're supposed to root for anymore. The White Walkers, perhaps?

Bran is still up there. If they kill him off the same way they killed off his family, I think they've gone a bridge too far. Given what has happened in the story so far, he would be the next Stark to get killed.

Oh, and Hardhome...what's the point in fleshing out a character and then killing her off? Why are the wights in such a state, anyway? They never used to be. But overall...yeah, nice waste of Birgitte Hjort Sørensen. Assuming she turns up again, she's not going to have many lines, is she?

I think it was misdirection. I assumed she was going to be the next Ygritte.
 

skimom2

Just moseyin' through...
Oct 9, 2013
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Back to series-not-book stuff, and initially it looked like the series was going to be a triumph, but I've been struggling since around the mid-point.
The rape of Sansa was, IMO, gratuitous. It undid all the progress of her character and taught us nothing about Ramsay or Reek that we didn't already know and couldn't have been implied via the simpler device of Reek closing the door on the viewer and us seeing a tearful Sansa next time out. We know the type of man Ramsay is and Sansa's first encounter was never going to be pleasant for her. It was also inevitable from the moment she said she would marry the psycho, so did we need to see it? No, we did not.
On the other hand, the burning of Shireen was not gratuitous. It was hard to watch, certainly, but Stannis had a motive for it and it showed how his conviction and devotion to his new religion was both quieter and deeper than that of his apparently more devout wife. Yes, it was also allied to his desire for power to an extent, but...

I read an interesting article today that addresses this (don't be put off by the website name--these guys really are smart). Mad Max: Fury Road Makes Your Rape Arguments Invalid - Smart Bitches, Trashy Books

It turned out to be a pretty uneven season in the end, IMO, particularly because you could see where the original material was ending and the Hollywood-indoctrinated screenwriters were taking over. If any more plot turns had been telegraphed, they might as well have broadcast in Morse.

A final thought: I read that Benioff and Weiss were 'cackling like schoolboys' over a scene from the books that was a favourite of their and had to be included. This turned out to be the rape scene mentioned above. As distasteful as I found that scene, I thought their approach and attitude was sickening. Might want to check those moral compasses, lads. They seem to have gone a bit wobbly.
 
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Lord Tyrion

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It's funny watching this scene.


Especially after...
The theory as to who Jon Snow's mother is and the fact that Ned and Robert are clueless as to what happens in the end.

When I first watched this, I assumed they would both be on the show a long time. lol
 
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Mr Nobody

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I read an interesting article today that addresses this (don't be put off by the website name--these guys really are smart). Mad Max: Fury Road Makes Your Rape Arguments Invalid - Smart Bitches, Trashy Books

Interesting read. Though I hadn't seen MM:FR yet either. :biggrin2:

I get, absolutely, that there has always been a 'no holds barred' approach to the show. It's one of the reasons why I like/d it so much. However, you can create a problem for yourself if you insist on seeing things in terms of constantly having to go one better or push harder. Inevitably, one time, you're going to fail (or succeed but only create such utter revulsion in your audience that they switch off in droves; a Pyrrhic victory if ever there was one. Apart from...oh you know! Never mind ;)).
I think the producers (and the same goes for TWD here, to an extent) have to realize that these things - rape, betrayal, murder - have a lot of power. Doing something - a rape scene, let's say, with the 'door' open instead of closed - just because you can is a bit like finding a nuclear warhead with a big red button on the side and giving it a press just to see what happens. Sometimes (most times, actually) you don't need to press the button - and an audience doesn't need to see it pressed - to know.
A bit of subversion would have worked, too: if it's general policy to show the brutality of duels, rape, and so on, if they take a step back and don't show a specific scene - effectively closing the door in our faces - would our reaction be one of "They felt they couldn't show it? How bad was it?". And the imagination, of course, would take over and make it so much worse than any depiction could possibly be and remain within the bounds of broadcasting regulations.
In the case of Sansa's rape, a few welts, cuts and bruises, obvious signs of crying and a change of gait would have completed the job and been more powerful, in the end, than the 50 Shades stuff that was all we were allowed to actually see (the rest being implied by sound), shocking though that was.
 

Out of Order

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Oh, please!!!!!!

You know nothing do1you9love? :biggrin-new:

Have you read the books yet, Out of Order? I am thinking I need to reread, some of Skimom's and Lord Tyrion's comments about stuff differing/following the books are not in my memory banks. ;-D

I'm slowly plugging along. I'm halfway through A Storm of Swords......and loving every minute of it!!!!;;D

Particularly all the changes/differences from the show. It really keeps the interest up and is not just a rehash.:D
 

do1you9love?

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Feb 18, 2012
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You know nothing do1you9love? :biggrin-new:



I'm slowly plugging along. I'm halfway through A Storm of Swords......and loving every minute of it!!!!;;D

Particularly all the changes/differences from the show. It really keeps the interest up and is not just a rehash.:D
:baffle:

I need to reread and then read the last one. I started with the TV and didn't want to pre-read and have it mess up the TV, which is completely the opposite of everything else I usually do. But I agree, the books flesh out the story and characters so much, it's worth reading for sure!
 

Out of Order

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Feb 9, 2011
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:baffle:

I need to reread and then read the last one. I started with the TV and didn't want to pre-read and have it mess up the TV, which is completely the opposite of everything else I usually do. But I agree, the books flesh out the story and characters so much, it's worth reading for sure!

I'm the same. Did the TV show first and now the books. But, I'm glad I am watching at the same time. My pea brain couldn't keep up with all the characters in the books if I didn't have the show to fall back on.