Question regarding "It" *SPOILERS*

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Scott Chu

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Aug 11, 2014
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***SPOILERS***



Is "It" really dead?

After the adult losers killed the Spider-It, Richie damn the It and someone ask him "Why you do that?". Richie replied with "nothing". However the narration said he knows well enough why. Does that imply he knows It doesn't really die "completely", the rest-of-It is still in the macrouniverse?
 
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FlakeNoir

Original Kiwi© SKMB®
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Apr 11, 2006
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Is "It" really dead?

After the adult losers killed the Spider-It, Richie damn the It and someone ask him "Why you do that?". Richie replied with "nothing". However the narration said he knows well enough why. Does that imply he knows It doesn't really die "completely", the rest-of-It is still in the macrouniverse?
Scott, I've just changed the title of your thread so as not to give away spoilers to folks who haven't yet read the story. (I've also moved your thread into the Novels section of the MB.

Also I'll ask Robert Gray to drop in and answer your question... he's my resident "IT" go-to guy.
 

Kurben

The Fool on the Hill
Apr 12, 2014
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I think the IT-thing died but the evil that lurks inside might have "infected" some people to do horrible deeds still. But i think the monsters dead. The most positive proof for that would be that Derry collapsed. It was built where its home was and when It died parts of Derry died with it.
 

Robert Gray

Well-Known Member
***SPOILERS***
Is "It" really dead?

After the adult losers killed the Spider-It, Richie damn the It and someone ask him "Why you do that?". Richie replied with "nothing". However the narration said he knows well enough why. Does that imply he knows It doesn't really die "completely", the rest-of-It is still in the macrouniverse?

While there will always be another monster, evil, or threat... the apotheosis of all monsters which the Losers referred to as Pennywise or simply as It is quite dead. We have ample proof of this fact, not the least of which is the voice of the Other itself (Gan or God?) which breaks its silence to give Bill a "well done" compliment. This alone is the final nail in the coffin, so to speak. Without a doubt, the Deadlights still twinkle and titter in a mad, endless screed somewhere outside reality. That, as they say, is a horse of a different color. The Losers earned their victory. We, who rode along around a thousand pages with them, likewise earned it. To simply yank the rug now would be dishonest and invalidate all that they did or suffered.

Now, all that being said, there is still a chance some of the spawn of It escaped into the darkness. There is (in my opinion) a thinny under Derry. The coming of It which blasted the landscape also made the walls between realities very thin down there in the dark. It could be some of those spawn escaped into other levels of the Tower and that we have even seen them as lesser shadows, reflections of their parent monster. It could be that one (or more) of them still reside beneath Derry. We must remember, however, that such creatures would take thousands and thousands of years to grow to be the kind of threat (if they ever could) as their mother/father monster. It took Pennywise countless centuries to come due. That should give you some inkling into the difference in growth and maturity of such creatures. More to the point, while such monsters (if they exist at all) would certain have some link to their parent, they would not be the same. I often liken Pennywise (It) to Ungoliant of Middle Earth. There are remarkable similarities. The brood that the great black spirit spider begat came in all sizes, but most were little horrors. Even the greatest of her children (Shelob) never approached the power, size, and scope of Ungoliant. Food for thought.

Pennywise is dead. The next thing to slither our from under the bed, however, is not.
 

masterjedi343

Member
Jul 20, 2013
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IT is one of my favorite Stephen King Novels. Having finished the DT series(which is also now one of my favorite), I could agree that IT could have come from the Todash but The Deadlights exist outside space still if I remember correctly. It's possible, I guess that IT could re manifest itself somewhere else right after thousands of years? Maybe not Derry though. Question on that why I am at it; did IT send the meteor with it's 'mortal' form knowingly?
 

blunthead

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Aug 2, 2006
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IT is one of my favorite Stephen King Novels. Having finished the DT series(which is also now one of my favorite), I could agree that IT could have come from the Todash but The Deadlights exist outside space still if I remember correctly. It's possible, I guess that IT could re manifest itself somewhere else right after thousands of years? Maybe not Derry though. Question on that why I am at it; did IT send the meteor with it's 'mortal' form knowingly?[/QUOTE]
("Question on that why I am at it..." =D )

Are you referring to
the landing of the spaceship?
 
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blunthead

Well-Known Member
Aug 2, 2006
80,755
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Atlanta GA
IT is one of my favorite Stephen King Novels. Having finished the DT series(which is also now one of my favorite), I could agree that IT could have come from the Todash but The Deadlights exist outside space still if I remember correctly. It's possible, I guess that IT could re manifest itself somewhere else right after thousands of years? Maybe not Derry though. Question on that why I am at it; did IT send the meteor with it's 'mortal' form knowingly?
I think sK...
used the extraterrestrial spaceship as the way IT came to Earth as a way of suggesting that some extraterrestrials are not from another planet but from supernatural places. So I think IT was always not other than a "mortal form".
 

Pucker

We all have it coming, kid
May 9, 2010
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It's been a while since I've read It, but I seem to recall the Turtle being confused about some stuff or not remembering things exactly. I think it's entirely possible that It has no idea what It is or where It comes from.
 

Robert Gray

Well-Known Member
You have to remember that Pennywise (or simply It) existed as a unique monster, however massive, within Derry's level of the Tower. That monster was tied to a specific reality. The force (the outside evil) sprang from the Deadlights, which are outside of everything else. In short, the Deadlights continue to twinkle and pulse in unending madness, but on the level of the Tower in which Derry resides, the unique avatar of that energy is dead. You have to understand that we are talking metaphysics here. What is more we are talking cosmology and "fhysics," i.e. fiction-physics here. I will, for the sake of simplicity, refer to It as Pennywise for the rest of this post to avoid any confusion with my using it as the pronoun versus It the monster.

I want you to think back to the Ritual of Chüd. When Pennywise is taking Bill's essense (soul) toward the Deadlights, it is to cast him forever outside and remove the threat Bill represents. There is, without a doubt, a bit of vindictiveness there too. Pennywise taunts and talks to Bill as they hurtle through the darkness. Pennywise comments that they might as well talk "while they still can" because the closer Pennywise gets to the Deadlights, the more unintelligible it becomes. This is because as Pennywise returns to the source, it is somewhat absorbed back into the whole. Sentience as we know it is transformed into madness. This seems to imply that the sentient thought, motivations, and even character of Pennywise were born (or reflected) by the level of the Tower to which it came. In a way Pennywise does not exist as a unique entity within the Deadlights. Pennywise only exists when that energy manifested itself on that level of the Tower, i.e. in Derry. It would appear that the great barrier that holds the Deadlights outside has small holes through which the Deadlights pour out. That light doesn't belong. It has no form of its own. It has no real logic of its own. It is madness. It is wrong. It is outside evil. What does light do? It reflects off things. Pennywise, at least as we understand him, was born of two titanic forces, the Deadlights and the Tower upon which that light fell.

This theory, and as it is my own conjecture I can call it nothing else, seems to work with the cosmology that is revealed directly within the book itself. We get a brief glimpse into the mind of Pennywise. This cosmic force of unmaking is enormous beyond the scope of human imagination. Pennywise believes itself to be one of only two cosmic beings (itself and the Turtle). Sometimes Pennywise suspects (and both enraged and frightened by the thought) that there might be another being, i.e. the Other. In short, if my theory is true, some of the Deadlights pass the barrier and hurtle toward a level of the Tower (reality) and leaves the absolute insanity behind. It perceives itself in relation to everything else. It gains a personality of a sort, however self centered and evil. This creature "thinks therefore it is" as opposed to simply being a cosmic amoeba of evil outside energy without a driving mind behind it. This new creature evolves and is further defined by its stay in Derry. It takes on constant forms, not having any of its own, from the minds and notions of people it feeds upon. While it is somewhat horrific to consider, the full shape and style of Pennywise's evil comes from us. It eats people because we think it is supposed to do so. The nature of its cruelty is a reflection of our own. It is the ultimate outsider and yet the application of its evil is merely a mimicry of our own. It cannot create, only copy. Mostly it just destroys because it is easier to destroy than create. Most frightening of all, Pennywise by its long attendance in reality, is taking on the slow but sure ability to create. It has taken countless centuries but it has finally come due. Pennywise will become both mother and father to a brood. This too, I would argue, it got from us. Light reflects and as we reproduce and grow, Pennywise has through its ability to mimic managed the feat as well.

From a metaphysical point of view, the Losers sealed that specific breach from the Deadlights to their level of the Tower when they killed Pennywise. That isn't to say that living, outside evil won't ooze in again, but that unique, specific manifestation is forever lost. This is because it was like any of us, created and colored by reality in which it came into being and the time it spent there. Pennywise didn't exist as Pennywise in the Deadlights and thus Pennywise can't just be replicated by the Deadlights again. The Deadlights needs us to build the perfect beast. Times change and should that light fall upon us again, it a very different monster will arise.
 
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masterjedi343

Member
Jul 20, 2013
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First off I'd like to say: wow amazing post Robert! You put a perspective on it that I hadn't thought to try. You must dig deep down into the depths of the book and look for every scrap of information. Or you're just a very smart guy who can pick up on that sort of thing. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. Also I'd like to point out on a sort of unrelated note that Grey's post is #19(having come from reading the DT series recently I got a kick out of that!) and back ON topic I'd also like to say I can agree with your theory on Pennywise's own creation from humanity. Even that small one in Derry helped form a consciousness and It attached itself to it because it knew it could feed on that. The Deadlights might find its way into another level of the Tower but, as far as Pennywise goes, he is dead.

This is a very interesting topic to say the least. I'd love to get into a discussion about the Macroverse sometime, and talk more in deep about The Turtle and The Deadlights. Probably not on this particular forum post but maybe in another! Not sure where that'd go under though. Thanks again Mr Grey!