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The situation in Ukraine

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Out of Order, Feb 27, 2014.

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  1. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    Another bloody crime of Kiev's junta against people of Donbass:
    Ukrainian troops kill more than 25 people in Krasny Liman hospital

    ITAR-TASS: World - Ukrainian troops kill more than 25 people in Krasny Liman hospital

    SLOVIANSK, June 04. /ITAR-TASS/. Ukrainian servicemen have shot and killed more than 25 people in the hospital of Krasny Liman, chairman of the Supreme Council of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic Denis Pushilin told ITAR-TASS by telephone.
    "According to preliminary information, more than 25 people have been killed but we fear the toll might be higher," Pushilin said. "Shooting at the sick and wounded is not even genocide. The immoral actions by Kiev's junta defy explanation."

    He said the precise casualty toll from Sloviansk fighting was not available. "Figures differ greatly. We'll know later," Pushilin said.

    A representative of people’s militia said on June 3 that Ukrainian military forces had shelled a hospital in the city of Krasny Liman. In his words, shells hit the roof of the building, damaged the hospital fence and broke down all windows.
    However, several commuter trains were cancelled over massive damages on the railway track and the platform at a railway station in the city of Krasny Liman in Ukrainian air strikes, the press service of the Donetsk railway authority said on Wednesday. Administrative and economic buildings, platforms and the railway track at railway station Krasny Liman were damaged in the air strike, the press service said. A surgeon was killed in the attack on the hospital, the press service also noted.
    Meanwhile, militia stated that Ukrainian military forces had shot down a brigade of railway workers from the city of Sloviansk in Krasny Liman on June 3. “Railway workers who remained alive are being kept in captivity. Snipers do not permit them to go out,” the militiaman said, not elaborating where people were locked up.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014
  2. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    Taking the article as it stands, from protestations by an entirely partisan group, it's as appalling as reports of that same partisan group suppressing free voting by intimidation and violence in the same area.

    I've been listening to NPR reporters in that area. It's pretty interesting, and not the same as what we're reading here.
  3. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    Really bad news:
    Pentagon to send military advisers to Ukraine

    Pentagon to send military advisers to Ukraine — RT News

    American military advisers will soon arrive in politically fractured Ukraine in a move the Pentagon says is designed to build “defense institutions” in the country, where nationalist forces continue saber-rattling against Russia.

    In preparation for the consultations, US defense officials met with Kiev authorities earlier this week to discuss ways how the two countries “could strengthen our long-term defense cooperation to help Ukraine build highly effective armed forces and defense institutions,” Pentagon spokesperson Eileen Lainez said, as quoted by Military Times.

    The Pentagon considers sending its military advisers “a first step” toward helping to “shape and establish an enduring program for future US efforts to support the Ukrainian military through training, education, and assistance.”

    “We are committed fully to getting the assistance to Ukraine as quickly as possible,” Lainez said.

    Lainez’s statement follows President Barack Obama’s promise earlier this week that the US would provide Kiev additional military help which may include training of its law enforcement and army personnel.

    The Pentagon spokeswoman asserted that Washington does not see a military solution to the Ukrainian crisis, after an armed coup forced out its president, Viktor Yanukovich, following Kiev’s decision to put on hold the association agreement with the EU over economic concerns.

    “Our focus continues to be on supporting Ukraine economically and diplomatically,” Lainez said. “As the president has said, we do not see a military solution to this crisis. Throughout the review, we’re looking at items with the intent that whatever is approved will stabilize the situation in Ukraine.”

    In the meantime, since March, the White House has approved more than $23 million in security assistance to Ukraine.

    On June 4, Obama said that the US was providing additional $5 million aid for "the provision of body armor, night vision goggles and additional communications equipment." The White House also said other aid for Ukraine included 300,000 ready-to-eat meals and financing for medical supplies, helmets, hand-held radios and other equipment.

    Obama’s pledges to Ukraine, at the same time, came on the heel of his vows to invest $1 billion in stepping up the US military presence in Eastern Europe in order “to defend your territorial integrity”.

    The US President statements came amid the deteriorating political crisis in south-eastern Ukraine, where anti-Kiev protesters seek independence and where intense clashes between self-defense militia and the regime’s troops are now a part of everyday life.

    This means that the U.S. will help Kiev junta in the civil war against Donbass and following introducing Ukraine in NATO. What the hell Putin is waiting for? Now he must enter the russian troops in the Southeasten Ukraine to help Novorossia or else we get NATO base in Kharkov or Donetsk in coupe years.
    VultureLvr45 likes this.
  4. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    If Ukraine wants to ask for help from Russia, or NATO, or the EU, or Japan, or China, or Israel, or OPEC, it should be able to contract with whom it wants, or sovereignty is meaningless. But since Russia has annexed a chunk of land and appears to be angling for more, it doesn't seem like a likely source of helpfulness.
    VultureLvr45 and jchanic like this.
  5. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    The fact is that Ukraine becomes the colony of the USA now. The USA acts the same way as well as it was in case of Iraq or Afghanistan - set up their marionette regeme in Kiev. The US administration literaly tells to Ukraine Government what they should do. And actually, I told about Novorossia - The Southeastern regions of Ukraine which declared themselves as independent states. Russia must help them in this stand against Kiev's regeme. I think, Russia should recognize Lugansk and Donetsk Republics as independent states and then help them by military force. May be do not need entering the troops but make non-fying zone over Donbass, for instance. Or else Russia can get NATO base right near her borderline somewhere in Lugansk before long.

    Well, why Russia did it, how'd you think? When Maidan junta come to power by illegal coup in Kiev - Ukraine had starting to lose territories. Why now but it wasn't happened during Yanukovich "regeme", or even during Yushenko era?
    VultureLvr45 likes this.
  6. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    Sorry, but "colony of the US" is just propaganda talk. Like the nations of the EU would be a "colony" of the US. Just because they have similar interests of being democratic, market-economy nations doesn't make other countries "colonies." It makes them of like nature.

    Afghanistan housed people who bombed our buildings, the US went in to take them out. Ukraine is not comparable to Afghanistan.

    It apparently was because with the new temporary and then elected government, Ukraine was no longer a virtual colony of Russia, and Putin wanted to retake as much of the former colony as he could.

    The fact remains he's not going to be helpful to Ukraine asking for help, and so if Ukraine wants help, it's going to go elsewhere.
  7. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    All right, agreed, "colony" is a strong word, let's say satellite of the USA. "Interests of being democratic, market-economy" - I'd say it's propaganda talk from the west. There's the interests of a bunch of oligarchs of Ukraine (like Kolomoisky, Poroshenko, etc.) and geopolitical interests of the USA: to control the Black Sea region (Crimea), to undermine Russian defense (by locating PRO-radars and NATO base in the Eastern Ukraine), to control gas-transit in Europe. So, yes, Ukraine now becomes a satellite of the USA.

    O.k., Afghanistan is an incorrect instance. Georgia, Lybia, Egypt, and now Ukraine are good instances. All those coloured revolutions, "Arabian springs", when legitimate authority of a country is changing on the marionette regime, are projects of the USA. The same thing they are trying to do in Venezuela and Sirya.

    Obviously, Ukraine is stayed in the sphere of influence of Russia, the same way as Canada stayed in the sphere of influence of the USA. For 23 years of independence Ukraine was integral, but when Maidan junta come to power with their idiotic laws (to ban russian language, for instance) and nazi views - there's the real threat appeared for Russia. In Crimea there could appear NATO base, so Putin just took measures to prevent it, and he was right. Don't you believe? Then look at Donbass - there's the civil war where junta kills all of those who's oppose them. The same thing might be in Crimea.
    Today, Novorossia needs help, when Kiev's junta is killing people there. Ukraine won't be same as before, anymore. Don't you believe the people of Donbass would like to stay a part of such a country who's autority had bombarded and murdered them? Personally, I don't.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2014
  8. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    We can throw around the propaganda words of fascism and junta and all that, but it's not impressive when a patently corrupt leader is out and a democratically elected government is in.

    If the government of Ukraine is illegitimate, so are most governments around the world, including Russia and the U.S. It's the way of people, when they're suffering from oppression, real or perceived, to toss out the old rascals and bring in the new ones. The U.S. did that in 1776, Russia did that in 1917, China did that in 1949, and Ukraine did that in 2014.

    When a change of government is possible, it's the nature of countries to support those that best reflect their own views or, just as likely, to oppose those who do not. That's why the U.S. supported the South Vietnam government in that civil war, why the Soviet Union supported the prevailing Afghanistan government in their little dust-up with the mujahedin, why the U.S. supported (at arm's length) the toppling of a Libyan regime that had promoted terrorism against the U.S., and so on.

    Ukraine is in an unenviable spot. They kicked out the corrupt leader Yanukovych and, in doing so, enraged Putin, because Yanukovych was his darling holding the line against political and economic ties to Western Europe. So Putin, in an understated way, has attacked Ukraine. I think he perceives that he's not going to hold on to Ukraine, so he'll grab what he can and make life miserable for them in the meantime.

    Meanwhile, Ukraine is very much in the position of a woman who has an abusive boyfriend who won't let her break up with him, beats on her when she complains about the relationship, and starts taking her stuff, saying, "Just try to stop me." Then when she asks others for help, he snarls, "Ha! I knew I couldn't trust you."
  9. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    Luhansk People’s Republic asks Russia to recognize its independence
    ITAR-TASS: World - Luhansk People’s Republic asks Russia to recognize its independence

    LUHANSK, June 11. /ITAR-TASS/. The self-proclaimed Luhansk People’s Republic (LPR) has addressed Russia and another 14 states asking to recognize its independence. The address has been published by the LPR’s republic on Wednesday.
    “The LPR Supreme Council, municipal, regional congresses of people’s deputies, public unions are addressing the Russian Federation and asking it to make a decision on recognizing the independence of LPR as a sovereign independent state,” says the statement signed by LPR Supreme Council Chair Alexei Karyakin.
    “The document was adopted on the eve at a session of the LPR Supreme Council,” the spokesperson for the self-proclaimed republic told ITAR-TASS. Similar addresses were also sent to Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, China, Serbia, Venezuela, Cuba and Nicaragua.
    May 22, the Supreme Council of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic also decided to address Russia with a plea to recognize its independence. May 12, the Donetsk People’s Republic asked the Russian Federation for accession.

    Referenda in Ukraine’s south-east
    May 11, referenda on the regions’ statuses were held in the Luhansk and Donetsk regions of Ukraine. Upon the poll results, 96.2% of voters supported the region’s state independence and the creation of the Luhansk People’s Republic. 89.7% voted for the independence of Donetsk People’s Republic.

    I would like Russia would recognize independence of LPR. They need help and the only one who's able to help them is Russia.
  10. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    Democratically government? Well, let's see, the coup of Maidan was on the 22 February and Poroshenko was elected on the 25 May. Between these dates were: the splitting of Crimea, Lugansk and Donetsk regions, the beggining of civil war and as result - the hundreds of dead and wounded, the thousands of refugees, reducing of economics of Ukraine. Now Ukraine come to a brink of an economic disaster - the threat of default. These are results of Junta ruling, and "democratically elected" Poroshenko leads the country further down where the sun don't shine. Paradox, but in Ukraine еach new president worse than previous one.

    No, it's not the same. You brought instances of revolutions, but that was happened in Ukrane it's not revolution, it's the coup.d'etat. Revolution is a fundamental transformation of the social and political institutions (like from monarchy to a bourgeois republic, for instance) You see, this coup was provided and well organized. Just one bunch of oligarcs fights against the other. Look, please wacth video Goblin News 11: Коричневый переворот on Youtube.com there's able to turn on English subtitles, there's much more about it. Well, as result of this coup the same people stand at the wheel as before: Poroshenko, Yatsenuk. etc + radicals of Svoboda (Nazi party). One of Maidan slogans was "Ukraine without oligarcs!" Now oligarcs are ruling the Ukraine. So no, there's nothing common with all those events you've told.

    And after this support all of those countries drowned in blood of the civil war and retarded in development.

    Ukrainian economics more depends of Russian economics than Russian of Ukrainian one. So economic ties to Western Europe for Ukraine it's a massive strike at Ukrainian economics first of all. Who needs in Europe ukrainian products? But european products will uncontrollably flow through Ukraine in Russia, because we have The free trade zone of the CIS including Ukraine. Putin wasn't enraged, he just see it and take measures to defnse Russian economics. What do you think he should do, to stay and wacth? Well, then why the hell us such president? And he wasn't attacked Ukraine.

    An incorrect comperison. Now Ukraine is agonizing and falling apart because of this February coup. Ukraine had lost her integrity and sovereignty because of this February coup. But the Western nations keep holding&cheering Ukraine on this road to abyss, the sme way as well as Yugoslavia back in the day.
  11. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    I wanna going back to Odessa events, becauce here was some spokesman of Maidan who told some incorrect and comfortable for Maidan junta version. Please watch this video The Odessa Massacre - What REALLY happened on youtube.com then many things become more clear.
  12. Moderator

    Moderator Ms. Mod Administrator

  13. hossenpepper

    hossenpepper Don't worry. I have a permit!!!

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  14. Moderator

    Moderator Ms. Mod Administrator

    Now did I say that?! ;)
    skimom2 and FlakeNoir like this.
  15. hossenpepper

    hossenpepper Don't worry. I have a permit!!!

    Nope. Nor would you. I however am just some knucklehead that has no affiliation with SK, his employees or website beyond being a free member thereof. So I said it and call it like I see it.
    FlakeNoir, jchanic and Moderator like this.
  16. Lily Sawyer

    Lily Sawyer B-dazzled

  17. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    Strange news:

    Federation Council to examine item about revocation of permission to use troops in Ukraine
    ITAR-TASS: Russia - Federation Council to examine item about revocation of permission to use troops in Ukraine

    MOSCOW, June 25, 2:10 /ITAR-TASS/. The Federation Council (FC) upper house of the Russian parliament, on Wednesday will examine an agenda item concerning a revocation of consent to the use of the Armed Forces in Ukraine's territory.

    Prior to the House plenary session, the theme is to be discussed at a joint meeting of the FC's three committees, those on defence and security, on international affairs, and on constitutional legislation. The joint meeting will be held behind closed doors, a member of one of the committees said.

    In all, the agenda of the 357th plenary session of the upper house of parliament includes about 40 items.

    These include, in particular, a draft address by the FC to UNESCO with a call to condemn the Ukrainian authorities' arbitrariness with regard to Russian journalists. The FC will also draw the attention of the International Organization of Journalists to numerous instances of violation of the rights of the media in Ukraine. The House members also plan to ratify the RF Treaty with Kazakhstan on Goodneighbourliness, and an agreement with Armenia on the deliveries of natural gas.

    Why Putin did it? Now, when Kiev's junta sabotages ceasefire agreements, kills russian jounalists, shells russian borderline territories. Stange indeed... Now Putin has unenviable choise between the bad or very bad things. I mean if he enters russian troops in Donbass is a bad thing (then he gets sanctions from the West,etc.) or he gives up in Donbass and this is the very bad thing (The Western nations realize that they can do anything and Russia won't resist, something like agreements with Yanukovich on 21th february 2014). This is his personal Rubicon, will he cross it or just step back?
  18. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    Pretty interesting. Some choice excerpts:

    "The documents show instructions provided to the commenters that detail the workload expected of them. On an average working day, the Russians are to post on news articles 50 times. Each blogger is to maintain six Facebook accounts publishing at least three posts a day and discussing the news in groups at least twice a day."

    "Russian state TV endlessly asserts that Kiev’s interim government is under the thumb of 'fascists' and 'neo-Nazis' intent on oppressing Russian-speaking Ukrainians..."

    And if the separatists shoot down Ukrainian helicopters and transports, killing the soldiers in them, it's the Ukrainians' fault. Got it.
    Moderator likes this.
  19. Lily Sawyer

    Lily Sawyer B-dazzled

    It's his personal whatever he wants it to be, and he definitely doesn't want the U.S. to commence sanctions on Russia. He's being a hypocrite with this "withdrawal", even though he's placed thousands of troops at the Ukrainian eastern border. He's a lying sack of old-school KGB sh*t that still smells from the Andropov years. I don't trust him further than I can throw him - and that ain't much. I'm no Communism alarmist, but I do know what kind of tactics the KGB used to get information out of people. Putin was the ringleader, and I'm convinced he'd throw his own grandmother under a bus if he thought it might make him more powerful.

    He still wants Ukraine, and he'll get Ukraine without having sanctions slapped on him. He's crafty enough to do it without the EU or the U.S. even flinching.
    Moderator and jchanic like this.
  20. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    It's the war, what do want from "separatists", that they should stay and watch as Ukrainan troops kill them? And don't forget about civilans women and children wich were murdered by Ukrainian troops/The Na(zi)tional Guard, of course "separatists" were a little vexed with this fact that their neighbours, friends, wives and children were murdered by Ukrainian side.

    Lily Sawer, sorry but this is just a bunch of stamps of the western propaganda. Now Putin tries to do his best to provide security of the nation. Just try to put yourself on his place: you run a country and suddely in a neibour country comes to power by coup unfriendly regime, that starts a civil war right at your borderlines: the thousands of refugees tend to your country. Just think, would you like such situation at your borderlines in a neibour state?
    In my opinion Putin must help the army of the South-East to win this war against Kiev's junta. If they win, then the rest of regions rise and drive out the junta off Kiev. If they fall, then the war will come in Crimea and Russia, no, they mustn't fall.
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
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