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The situation in Ukraine

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Out of Order, Feb 27, 2014.

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  1. FlakeNoir

    FlakeNoir Original Kiwi© SKMB® Moderator

    Mr.Ace and Serhiy Krykun I have removed the video material from your messages as I think we're forgetting that children/teenagers also visit Stephen's website and the detail (while real and tragic) is too graphic.
    Dana Jean and king family fan like this.
  2. Serhiy Krykun

    Serhiy Krykun Active Member

    OK, FlakeNoir, I got that. Although, I guess, people who come here read Mr King's works and are not that squeamish. But I won't post such thing again.

    Here's an account of a witness from Odessa -- he's my friend and I trust his every word, for it was confirmed by a number of people I know. Odessa is a beautiful city with marvellous people of many nationalities, I go there thrice a year at least.
    Here's the translation of his account of the horrible events in Odessa, 05/02/14:

    My report on the events of May 2 in Odessa, first-hand experience.

    We (Euromaidan representatives) gathered on Soborna square at 3 pm and were getting ready to march across Odessa to show that Odessa is Ukraine.

    Around 3.15 pm from “Athens”, along Grecheska street, a column of pro-Russian activists in full armament started approaching our group.

    Militia arranged themselves in two chain-blocks to keep us apart.

    On both sides, people were pretty quick to undo the stones from the street pavement and throw them at one another over the Militia block lines. Flares and firecrackers were also used.

    The stones were in the air for about half an hour. The first people were injured and carried away from the battle. Nobody could estimate the real disposition of forces.

    In another 30 min a group of Euromaidan remonstrants decided to outflank the pro-Russians from the left, along the small street of Zhukovsky. I was in that group.

    When our group armed with cobble-stones outflanked them from the left side, and there was no Militia chain-line between us, the pro-Russians began to fire their combat guns (!).

    Those at the back of our group started to run away, while me and several others fell on the ground and tried to get cover behind the cars.

    Then the pro-Russians counterattacked us, throwing stones and flares. A huge cobble-stone fell a couple of centimeters away from my head, and a spall hit me in the brow. There was a great deal of blood and I got really scared.

    After that I realized there was no way I could wait out the battle and, as soon as our guys started throwing stones, I managed to get away and around the corner, closer to the crowd.

    There I saw the first person with a gun-shot wound. A bullet went through the guy’s leg artery, and the scarlet blood was gushing out as if from a fountain. At that, he was evidently in the state of shock and was trying to assure everyone he was OK. Me and a couple of other guys carried him to some makeshift first-aid post.

    When I was going back to Zhukovsky Street, I saw the most terrifying scene in my life.

    There was a dead guy lying on the pavement, covered with the Ukrainian flag. A stranger got a cell phone out of his pocket, called his father and said: “Your son has been shot dead. Come to claim him on Deribasivska Street”.

    The first “close-up” I saw after I got back to Zhukovsky Street: there was a Kalashnikov barrel (!) sticking out from the pro-Russian crowd covered with shields, simply firing rounds at our crowd.

    Many people were wounded and they fell down at once. Me and the others took one of them and carried him to the side. There was a hole in his bulletproof jacket. We carried him to the volunteer makeshift first-aid post. By that time, all the ambulance cars were full and on their way to the hospital.

    That was the moment when looking at the ratio of forces I understood that the number of Patriots was much bigger, but the pro-Russians were better armed and organized. I thought that if they had enough ammo, we would all be killed or scattered soon.

    However, here’s where the strength of Ukrainian people is – in spite of guns shooting from the pro-Russian crowd, there were more and more activists coming at them from our side. Shielding themselves with trash-cans and café tables, people with stones were rushing at machine-guns.

    In the next couple of hours we surrounded the pro-Russians from all sides and blocked them at Grecheska Street and the parking lot of “Athens”. We blocked the passages mainly with barricades built with materials at hand.

    During that time, Militia was either doing nothing at all, or their actions were somewhat incomprehensible. But they were sure not to intervene or do anything to stop the conflict.

    In several hours, our side started throwing Molotov cocktails. A single fire-brigade came to extinguish the fires on the buildings caused by the Molotovs. I don’t know why, but at some point the firemen left their car with the windshield shattered.

    The Euromaidan supporters got into the car and ram-attacked the pro-Russian crowd through the barricades. At some point, the car stuck, and the maneuver failed.

    By that time I managed to carry away another wounded person to safety – unconscious, his head smashed. The people of Euromaidan were absolutely not prepared for the battle. Apart from about twenty soldiers of “Samooborona” (self-defence civil troops), our guys had no helmets, let alone bulletproof jackets.

    In the course of time, the gun shots were dying away, until they finally ceased. It was clear that the pro-Russians ran out of ammo.

    Then the Patriots attacked them from the Greek square, and started forcing the pro-Russians back along the Grecheska Street to Soborna square.

    At the moment, a Militia chain-line was arranged between us, allowing some part of pro-Russians to get away. But the crowd was quick to smash the block and started to chase the pro-Russians around the square.

    At the time, I started running up to pro-Russian activists and literally shielding them with my body for people were really beating them up with sticks and there was no way you could talk them out of it. Only such “body-shielding” could help.

    I saved three people that way. Those who were more or less alive were taken to the first-aid post and, thus, spared from further beating. But one of the pro-Russians, when no longer under attack and almost recovered, took out a huge knife and tried to stab me and that was it for me. I ducked, and he was hit in the head with a bat. I protected him no more.

    After the pro-Russians were finally scattered, I saw the streets and the square covered with blood.

    The Patriots regrouped and set out in columns for the Kulikov field, where the Separatists’ camp was situated.

    When I came there, the tents were already on fire, and the separatists barricaded themselves in the Trade Union House. From the windows, the pro-Russians opened a massive gun-fire, shooting at the square filled with our people. But it was only at Kulikov field that I first noticed guns among our crowd.

    Soon enough, the Trade Union House was set on fire with Molotovs. It caught fire, and the pro-Russians moved to the third floor. It was clear from the very beginning that if no measures were taken they would burn to death there.

    There was no Militia in sight at all. Earlier they were just idly standing by, but they didn’t even come to Kulikov field.

    Soon enough, we realized that the pro-Russians had to be rescued. Over an hour had passed since the fires on Kulikov field started, and not a single fire-brigade came.

    The Patriots took apart the stage platform and set two of its main columns against the windows so that the pro-Russians could get out. Many people started climbing up to help them out.

    Some people could take no more and began to jump out of windows from the third floor, falling straight to the pavement. It was horrible, because no one stood up after the landing.

    The rescued pro-Russians behaved aggressively (!). Some of them were ‘smart’ enough to engage in the fight with the crowd as soon as they got off the columns. I don’t know what was the force to drive those people. Eventually, they were beaten up for that till blackout.

    During those events, my sister Danochka and my mother were helping the wounded. One man was considered dead – he was covered with the Ukrainian flag and left lying sideways. Danochka came up to him, checked the pulse, and he turned out to be alive. Thanks to her, he was taken care of and carried to the doctors.

    Finally, the fire-brigades came and the Militia started to come along as well. The firemen’s actions were simply offensive and disgusting. They acted as if there was no hurry, they were slow and chose the safest positions. People simply took their fire-ladders and went to rescue the Separatists on their own.

    The rescue of pro-Russians gathered pace, and their main saviours were the people they were shooting at an hour ago. In fact, the fight came to an end at that point.

    According to Militia reports, over 50 people perished, but I guess we will learn the real numbers in a couple of days only. At a rough estimate, there were also over a thousand wounded.

    In this nightmare, Odessa has shown that there are ten times more Patriots here than pro-Russians. The folk simply (like at the times of Maidan) crushed the opponents with their incredible courage and their great advantage in numbers. I hope sincerely that the problem of separatism and pro-Russian moods has been solved and done with for the longest time possible.
    Pavlo Lenets,

    Odessa, Ukraine
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2014
  3. FlakeNoir

    FlakeNoir Original Kiwi© SKMB® Moderator

    Serhiy Krykun The difference between Stephen's work and what you and Mr.Ace are posting is enormous, Steve's work is Fiction. People coming to this site are not generally expecting to be viewing videos of people being bashed to death, that last video posted was horrendous and as a Moderator, I don't have a choice about what I can view--I have to watch it all. (I understand that makes me privileged to only be watching this from the safety of my screen--we just won't be allowing graphic content on the site.)

    I have placed a spoiler around your friend's text because the post was very long, not because of content.
    Dana Jean likes this.
  4. Serhiy Krykun

    Serhiy Krykun Active Member

    I agree with everything, you're completely right.
    I just hope, there won't be similar occasions to write about.
    FlakeNoir likes this.
  5. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    Wow, then how was it happened that only so called pro-russians activists were burnt alive? They have combat guns against unrmed patriots of Maidan. Yeah? It's a lie. Though I don't expect prooves from you, I know you haven't them. And they're no ukrainian patriots, not at all, but Maidan. And they're killing ukrainians. And only unarmed, because they couldn't do that in Slavaynsk or Lugansk, for instance - there are armed people there. Only facists were burn people alive, just like the Right Sector now. And now Maidan has come in Odessa. Who's next?

    FlakeNoir, if you let me, then I will post the video how those "patriots" to set up on fire the building and how they were beating survivors. All of it is on Youtube. I just can't stand this Maidan's lie. These nazi always want to show the world what they are doing with "Colorados" (that's how they called people wearing georgic stripes).
    Last edited: May 3, 2014
  6. FlakeNoir

    FlakeNoir Original Kiwi© SKMB® Moderator

    If people want to view the videos they can search for them on YouTube. I'm going to ask that people stop referring to each other as "Nazi's" and remind you all that we don't allow for personal attacks here on the website. Posts from this point on will either be edited, or deleted and unfortunately if that continues we will have to hand out infractions.
    Dana Jean and mjs9153 like this.
  7. mjs9153

    mjs9153 Guest

    Exactly Flake.. While there are a lot of topics that are covered here things like real murders should not be posted for viewing and are not a part of the Stephen King message board function,nor should they be..
    jchanic, Neesy and FlakeNoir like this.
  8. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    I didn't call my opponent "Nazi". I just call that the Right Sector - military radicals in Ukraine, who have guns, skills, power, etc. They are trained fighters and have extremely nationalistic views. The Right Sector contains of UPA, UNA-UNSO, and the other nationalistic organizations. They are followrs of Stepan Bandera, who's men allied with Hitler during WWII. So, as you see, the Right Sector are nazi. One of their slogans: "бей жiдiв i москалей" ("Beat the jews and russians").
    As for the videos, yes, all of them are on Youtube, there's perfectly seen what those "patriotic" guys did.
    Last edited: May 3, 2014
  9. FlakeNoir

    FlakeNoir Original Kiwi© SKMB® Moderator

    It wasn't clear in your previous post, who you were alluding to so I thought it timely for a reminder of the guidelines we employ here.

    So Mr.Ace, being that this is Stephen King's (the writer) website, will you be visiting some of the other threads, perhaps to speak a little about some of your favourites? (We do have to remember that the website isn't designed to be a political platform.)
    jchanic, mjs9153 and Dana Jean like this.
  10. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    Here's the interesting analysis of Maidan events from Goblin (Dmitryi Puchkov - journalist and translator). Just analysis, no more blood and murders. He's speaking in Russian, but there're subtitles in english:
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2014
  11. FlakeNoir

    FlakeNoir Original Kiwi© SKMB® Moderator

    I'm sorry, there were no subtitles and because I am not able to understand Russian I will not be able to approve your video as I cannot verify that it is able to be hosted on this website. (for legal reasons)
    Again, people are welcome to use YouTube if they wish verify things for themselves.
    jchanic, mjs9153 and Dana Jean like this.
  12. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    Yes, of course, actually, I was posted in the other threads in previous board (this is the new one). But now the Ukrainian events is the hot topic in all the world. As for me, this is really interesting what people think about it, so I'm here most of time that I spent on this new one board.
    Last edited: May 3, 2014
    FlakeNoir likes this.
  13. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    No subtitles? Sad. There's a notice:To turn on English/German subtitles click the "Captions" button below the video. May be it could help. The analysis is really interesting.
  14. FlakeNoir

    FlakeNoir Original Kiwi© SKMB® Moderator

    No I didn't see that, sorry. You can write the name of the video in a message and then people can YouTube it if they wish.
    (It was also over 26 mins long and I don't currently have that much time on my hands, so I am going to err on the side of caution.)
    Dana Jean and nate_watkins like this.
  15. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    Okay, the name of the video is: Goblin News 11: коричневый переворот

    So all who want can watch it on Youtube. I suppose, there's able to turn on english subtiles.
    FlakeNoir likes this.
  16. Walter Oobleck

    Walter Oobleck keeps coming back...or going, and going, and going

    There is a lot of information on the web. Some of it is confusing, as is some of the information posted here. For instance, the reader should have a list of terms to understand the many assorted names used to define the situation. I read one article: Ukraine crisis: Kremlin insists it cannot control pro-Russian separatists and calls for dialogue with West - Europe - World - The Independent
    In this article, there is confusing language on the part of the Russian, a Mr Peskov, who said, "those who recognize this junta as a legal power become an accomplice to this crime." Who is meant by the word "junta"? Does he mean those "anti-government protesters" who are occupying the Square? Or does he mean the previously elected president of Ukraine, this Viktor Yanukovich?

    I did watch one video, from 20 FEB 14, "I Am A Ukrainian" that features Yulia Marushevska. The video was included in an article that reported on the number of views it has received, some 1.5 million and the article also used the expression "anti-government protesters" in the description under the photos included in the article. Yulia is an "anti-government protestor."

    Too, there is a somewhat disturbing article about U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland who is reported to have told Ukrainian President Yanukovich that Vitaly Klitschko, described as a main opposition leader, should be in a new government. There were several other opposition leader names listed, names that represent other interests. Am I right that this Klitschko represents the "anti-government protestors" occupying the Square? There are elections scheduled for May 25th?

    What does Mr.Ace (strange, Mr. Ace's name is not included in the drop-down list) and Serhiy Krykun (but Serhiy's name is included in the drop-down list) think about Nuland's words to the Ukrainian president? Apparently there is video or audio of Nuland's words...she also has vulgar words for the European Union. Her words suggest that the U.S. and the Russian government share the same interest in Ukraine.

    I read the lengthy report that Serhiy posted yesterday, the information that is found in the spoiler. I do not understand the numbers, the reported casualties...or even what that true number is. Weapons are reported to have been used by...pro-Russian separatists I believe. The reported numbers do not indicate that they are very accurate with their fire. This morning as I used the small room I picked up a magazine that I keep there to read...and I read about the U.S. Civil War, how two sides would square off at each other, firing muskets or in this case Henry and Spencer rifles, repeating rifles, and the first column dropping (dead) at the first volley. So I do understand the numbers or if they exist.

    I think it is interesting how language is used to define reality, the quoted words above indicate as much. "Anti-government protesters" to define those who occupy the Square and who have done so since last year. "Anti-government" instead of another equally definitive phrase, "pro-democracy supporters". Nuland's words are troubling to me, as I said, they seem to indicate one position while the U.S. government also tries to define reality by offering another position.
    Serhiy Krykun likes this.
  17. Walter Oobleck

    Walter Oobleck keeps coming back...or going, and going, and going

    Nuland told the Ukrainian president that Klitschko should NOT be in a new government. I don't know if that is a typo on my part, or editing by others, as was done in another post of mine from yesterday.
  18. Serhiy Krykun

    Serhiy Krykun Active Member

    Walter, junta is this. It's a term, that is widely used in Russia when speaking about Ukraine's temporary government. I say 'temporary', because, as I hope, everything will be certain after the presidential elections. Yes, the election is to happen on the 25th.
    Klitschko is part of the opposition, yes. He helped Maidan a lot by trying to negotiate with Yanukovich, but it was useless -- one cannot negotiate with a thug. BTW, have you seen his mansion? I've been there. Disgusting sight. But as my mother said, it was worth seeing to know where all the Ukrainian taxes went.

    I believe, Nuland's article is old and isn't relevant any more, as Yanukovich is long gone - having burnt down the documents (luckily, they were in a hurry and didn't bur them all) he escaped to Russia and Klitschko is running for the chair of Kyiv mayor, not for presidential position.

    "Anti-government protesters" is a wrong term, I agree - it sound like people here are struggling for anarchy, which is not the case. Of course, "pro-democracy supporters" is closer to the truth.

    As to the nightmare in Odessa, the number of perished is confirmed -- it's 46 people dead in total, 6 of them were killed during the clashed on the streets, 40 of them burned or choked to death.
    I think, you can google the news easily, but here's a link to a very detailed photo-report. The text is in Russian, but you can watch it as a comic strip, if you will. This is the most outrageous photo for me -- police, hiding behind the shields, helps the pro-Russians with guns, they didn't cease them:

    I guess, this video can be posted here, it's all obvious without comments:

    Today I learnt, that police released everybody. I'm speechless. And there are new casualties already.
    Walter Oobleck likes this.
  19. Walter Oobleck

    Walter Oobleck keeps coming back...or going, and going, and going

    What is the situation in Ukraine concerning private ownership of guns? Is it safe to assume that gun ownership is limited? Where are the 'pro-Russian' groups acquiring weaponry? Yes...I remember now having viewed pictures online of the presidential mansion, recall now that he left or fled the country. Who is governing in the interim?
  20. Serhiy Krykun

    Serhiy Krykun Active Member

    Walter Oobleck we have temporary govenment now, whis is mostly the same, apart from Azarov, the former prime minister, Yanukovich, ex-president, Victor Pshonka, former Prosecutor General of Ukraine (be sure to check out HIS house) and some other governmental criminals.
    One can't acquire guns that easily in Ukraine -- a great deal of paperwork is involved. A house with a gun is a rare.
    We have Yatseniuk for prime minister now and Turchynov is acting as the President (until the election to be held on the 25th of May), but they're to hesitant to take the necessary actions, they're afraid of the responsibility, I believe. So the 'neighbour' decided to take advantage.
    Neesy likes this.
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