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The situation in Ukraine

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Out of Order, Feb 27, 2014.

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  1. Walter Oobleck

    Walter Oobleck keeps coming back...or going, and going, and going

    Who is arming the various parties? Are the police providing the pro-Russians with guns, as in the photograph above? Will the election happen?
    Spideyman and Neesy like this.
  2. Serhiy Krykun

    Serhiy Krykun Active Member

    Walter Oobleck the election will happen, unless... well, I don't want to even think about it.
    Nobody knows who supplied them with guns, though it's obvious -- police released everybody (!!!). Everybody responsible for this has been fired, new people are helming Odessa police now, but the killers got away. Ukraine has too many troubles on its hands right now -- I doubt there'll be serious prosecution until everything is more or less stabilized.
    As to who arms the pro-Ukrainian activists... Believe it or not, they're mostly armed with bats, flares, and self-made Molotov cocktails. The few guns they have are private weapons.
    But there's also the radical Right Sector guys, who are better armed. I have no idea where they got the guns, I'll have to ask around. I'll get back to you if I get the answer.
  3. Walter Oobleck

    Walter Oobleck keeps coming back...or going, and going, and going

    So, are you in Kyiv? I don't understand completely what is happening. In the short video above, I assume those are Ukrainian police under the shields and that...who, pro-democracy activists are throwing the rocks? Is that Kyiv or Odessa? And the one group has maintained a presence in the Square since last year some time? These are the pro-democracy people? It seems tensions and hostility grows there. Who is trying to maintain a sense of calm? I don't understand the aim of the police in the video, simply holding a line in a street, eventually falling back, but the video did not pan back to the street where the rocks and concrete were being thrown. What is the make-up of the pro-democracy people? Are there a wide-range of people among them? And what of the pro-Russian group? Are these people...what? Russia? Or Ukrainian but of Russian descent? What is the religion of these people or do they hold to any particular religion? Are there a number of religions there?

    Is the increase in hostility an attempt to stop the elections? Or is that a question whose answer is obvious? I don't know. I wish there could be among you some who could argue for calm. Does it seem like even the sight of the other sets anger to boiling?
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  4. Serhiy Krykun

    Serhiy Krykun Active Member

    Yes, I'm from Kyiv.
    The photos are from Odessa. Gun-toting separatists ( or pro-Russian... thugs, name them what you like) and stone-throwing patriots.
    The Square? If you're talking about the Independence Square in Kyiv, the tents of pro-democratic activists have been there since last year. The separatist camp in Odessa was erected only recently and their number is petty -- it's about 1 to 10 proportion.
    Heck, too many questions. You have enough questions for me to write a book. It should be all over the news. Have you seen the recent press-conference of Obama with Merkel? You should.

    I'll try to stay away from this tread for a while, I'm tired.
  5. DiO'Bolic

    DiO'Bolic Not completely obtuse

  6. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    I agree. I don't watch it very much, but what I've seen, I've been impressed with.
  7. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    Nope. They are provacators of the Right Sector, if you look a little closer then you'll see the red stripes on their hands, the same red stripes were wearing some men of the police. That's how they recognize each other.

    The same patriots who have killed and burn people in the Union building? That's radicals of the Right Sector and ultras football fans. Yeah, that's they are. They were killing people with iron sticks and burn them alive. Now we see that's victims more over 50 people, it's about 100. One pregnant woman was choked with wire by them. True patriots!
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  8. Kurben

    Kurben The Fool on the Hill

    What i think is really scary is that he (Putin, i mean) is using the same tactics that Hitler used before the war with Poland and Checkoslokia. First he says that he will only defend russian subjects rights and that he supports the poeples will and things like that. He doesn't even pretend to remember the agrrement he signed a couple of years back when Ukraine got russian cheap if they closed their nuclear plants. In that treaty he also promised to hold the borders of Ukraine sacred or word to that effect. Now he has taken Crim, planning to take the rest and threating to cut off the gas which would make people shiver when the winter comes. He also has anticipated that the west will threaten but not react(just as Hitler did, he never thought that France and Britains Guarantee to Poland meant a thing). Obviously Putin doesn't think that the west will do anything but talk. To freeze a bankaccount isn't really menacing enough to make him change his course.
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  9. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    Kurben, o.k. what would you offer to Putin? Just to walk aside and let NATO to join UKraine and Crimea? Let NATO take control over the Black Sea region? Totally destroy russian defense? To act in interests of NATO, EU, Ukraine but not Russia? Do we (I mean russians) need this? What would you think would do the USA in the same situation in Mexico or Canada?
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  10. Kurben

    Kurben The Fool on the Hill

    If he is interested in the best for Ukraine why is he making it so difficult for them to hold their election so that everyone, west and east of the country, can easily participate in it without threats or guns to play a part. Why not try stand behind the forming of a new party, say a russianfriendly one that would attract persons bored with the thought of the rule in todays Ukraine, in the Ukraine that could run in the elections? If the support was big enough they would get, if not a majority, so at least a power platform from where they could make a difference. I do not think he should crawl to EU, Nato or anyone else. But i dont think sitting back while violence takes over control is a good way to go. And i dont think he should destroy russian defense, but why use his forces to frightens neighbours, and i'm not talking of Ukraine here, so that they run to EU and Nato for help? This power politics only makes him enemies in the rest of europe and i think in the long run that neither he, Russia or the rest of Europe need that. I was born during the cold war and the mistrust that was the mark of that period isn' something i wan't to see again. Regarding Mexico or Canada... If the US took control of part of either countries of them with the reason to protect their citizens i would say they was way out of line. Probably open the borders to fugitives from the new terrible reime that has done whatever. The Basic thing to consider is that by decision of russian leaders not to long ago the borders of Ukraine as it is today was decided. It was decided they belonged to Ukraine. I think, but i'm not sure that it was Chrustchev who made that decision. Putin, in the gasagreement i mentioned earlier also mentioned those borders and ackknowledged them. Obviously Putin and Russia has strong connections with crim and the eastern ukraine but does he want to control ukraine or does he want to be on friendly terms with Ukraine so that could in an easy way act in the russian minoritys interest? If it is the second alternative he has a very peculiar way of showing it. To protect civil citizens in eastern ukrauiine, regardless of where they are from, violence is not very protective. Putin himself said, in a meeting with US, EU and Ukraine that the the people who had tahen control of buildings in eastern ukraine shoulld lay down their weapons. They have not done so. Then it isn't strange that Ukraines army acts. It cant sit still while many cities in their territory is under siege and overrun by people with guns. That would be irresponsibility to a high degree. And i'm sure Putin would have done the same thing much earlier if the same thing had happened in Russia.
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  11. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    It's hard to do this when such people like the Right Sector are acting in Ukraine and providing repressions of all who against them. Just take a look what happened in Odessa. Free elections? Impossible in such conditions. First of all needs to unarmed the Right Sector and the other nationalistic organizations and provide security to all who would take part in this elections. Instead of it the Right Sector becomes the National Guard and goes in Eastern Ukraine to kill people, they kill even policemen who against them. And now we see that some candidats have guarded the others not... well, this is no elections this is farce.

    Yeah, totally agreed. Well, then let Kiev stops this anti-terroristic operation against their own people.

    People of Crimea made their chiose for themselves - they din't want to live under this illegal government in Kiev. They were right. Look at Odessa and Mariupol today. The same thing or even worse would be in Crimea if it's still stayed ukrainian territory.

    Look, it's not Russian Army acts in Eastern Ukraine, it's the people of this region fight against this regime in Kiev. They are ukrainians. And yes, the the people who had taken control of buildings in eastern ukraine shoulld lay down their weapons. But only after the Right Sector do the same thing. Only after this, or else it's will be slaughter like in Odessa where fighters of the Right Sector were killed and tortured unarmed people including women and oldmen.

    Well, it's strange then why Yanukovich could not act such way against "peaceful" rioters who were killing and burning soldiers of Berkut on Maidan? let's clarify why Yanukovich could not use army against Maidan, but Maidan could act such way against their opponents?
    May be, I hope I'll never know it. But I agree with you in the country must be order. And now armed junta rules in Ukraine which come to power with coup d'etat. And they are pushing the country to civil war.
    Neesy likes this.
  12. Kurben

    Kurben The Fool on the Hill

    I totally agree that an election in this moment would be a farce. But the only way to get an election is to get some calm. If they left the occupied buildings and put down their guns people could start perhaps start to talk. But it is very difficult to talk when guns are flying and people are shouting. I don't know how much influence Putin has with this group of people who occupies buildings and spread the unrest in Ukraine: And frankly i doubt if anyone except himself know that. but i don't think he is without influence. But it seems to me that he only accusing the ukrainians, he should also accuse the occupiers. To put the blame on just one side is seldom very believaable. About the ukrainian government i agree that it certainly has murky elements in it. To lessen their influence is a good reason for an election. And to have an election the ****ry needs to be in a more calm state. Why not at least try the democratic way? It seems to me that what the occupiers are saying is my way or no way. That isn't close to democracy (and i'm not saying that the regime in Ukraine is a model for it either but at lest they want an election), The election was planned late mai which seems impossible now. They must postpone it, i guess. Probably the Ukrainian government wouldn't oppose election observers to check that it was handled correctly. Russia could be a part of that and in that way smoothen the way for the people. For all the people in ukraine. There is a lot of very different opinions in ukraine about right and wrong, legal and illegal and so on. If you live in a democracy sometimes you have to accept a political compromise. Thats what elections are for. There can be no my way or no way. I hope i'm not insulting you in any way. This is just how i see it. And i'm convinced that neither you, me and many others know whats really going on. I'm sure that there is a lot we dont know from all sides in this conflict. No politician, whatever nationality he or she is of, tells all thats going on.
    Neesy, jchanic, Mr.Ace and 1 other person like this.
  13. Serhiy Krykun

    Serhiy Krykun Active Member

    Kurben, when Ace is trying to do here is expand the Russian propaganda. It works perfectly well in his homeland but falls apart on the outside, like a vampire in daylight.

    A friend of mine (he's from Zagreb, Croatia, and they had a similar problem a few years back) shared an article, so I'll pass it on:

    The silence of Donbass. The region has to decided whom it is with

    The citizens of Donetsk and Lugansk regions have to decide for themselves whether they want to live in Ukraine. Kyiv will not resort to mass military action.

    The stagnation of the anti-terrorist operation is explained by the soldiers with the attempt to avoid victims among the civilians. With the amount of criticism in society, and the criticism of law enforcement, demanding harsher action, this is an absolutely correct tactic. Blood divides, especially the blood of innocents. And being an idiot in a civilised country is not a death sentence. Taking into account with how much relish the Kremlin is chomping on the lived of Ukrainians – which has been demonstrated very well in Odessa – the heightened caution of the law enforcement is fully understandable.

    The situation in the east is very bad. The process of arming elements from the social lows, initiated by Russian saboteurs and agents, is unfortunately supported by many citizens of the region. Many testaments about small sellouts among the population, which is being used by the Kremlin and Yanukovich’s agents, are coming from Donbass. They name different sums – from 500 UAH for a one-time blockage of the Ukrainian army to several thousand for active participation in occupation of buildings. The presence of the peaceful population at the barricades is also being paid for. I won’t say that all the people who are blocking the Ukrainian soldiers have been paid, however the flow of reliable testaments from eastern Ukraine shows that many have sold out.

    The tactic of the Russian saboteurs, the spies and other professional expansionists of Russian peace is clear – to provoke victims among the local populations, either putting it, like in Odessa, in street clashes with citizens who have different views, or by putting them in the crossfire of our soldiers. Two Ukrainian airborne soldiers which had been killed from behind the backs of the unarmed crowd – this is the first act of the tragedy. In the second one, our soldiers might kill an unarmed person. Just because he, having decided to cover with his body the hired mercenaries because of stupidity or for money, would end up in the line of fire. After the victims among the civilians, an armed militia will start forming. This will happen just like it had everywhere and every time. Just like in Croatia in its war for integrity and independence with Miloshevich’s regime, or in Nicaragua during the long partisan war with the contras sponsored by the USA.

    Today, only two scenarios are possible for Donbass. It is not a secret that the active minority, as opposed to the passive majority, is wholeheartedly supporting the ideas of the so-called people’s republics – Donetsk and Lugansk ones, however these ideas are quite vague and so far are only manifesting in torture, kidnapping and robberies. So far the People’s Republics of Donetsk and Lugansk are a dead priest, a shot family with a child, the mauled MP Rybak. The “rebels” so far have no ideas that spread outside the framework of their physiological sadistic needs.

    If Donbass decides to resist the bandit-anarchist government imposed by the Kremlin, this means that Donbass will remain Ukrainian. The civilians, with the support of soldiers, will cleanse the region from professional saboteurs and mercenaries with the price of victims. Without external leadership the terrorists will either walk away, or will transform into gangs, which can later be neutralised.

    The second scenario is more prosaic and so far looks more probably – the gradual conversion of Donbass into Somalia with all normal and socially successful people fleeing the region. If this is to happen, the reason for it will be not the caution of the soldiers, but the passivity of the population, which allowed itself, just like in the 1990’s, to be governed by bandits and criminals. So far the citizens of Donbass themselves, whose leaders are repeating the mantra that nobody is hearing their region, in their mass have done nothing in order to show that they are also Ukraine. Odessa, Kherson, Zaporozhye, Kharkiv – these cities and regions have shown quite clearly that there nobody is planning to surrender to a bunch of saboteurs and mercenaries. And only Donbass, offended at the whole word, seems to be evaluating its fate without participation. It seems as though Ukraine is leading on its territory not a war against terrorists, but some kind of colonial war. The population is either passive, or it openly stands against its own army, by turning into a live shield in front of the soldiers, allowing the mercenaries to lead fire from behind their backs, the local police is wearing occupants’ ribbons and handing over government buildings. All those who have seen broadcasts from Mariupol can confirm it – regular citizens were the ones resisting the Ukrainian armed forces. Unarmed, but still supporters of mercenaries.

    With a passive majority and an active pro-Russian minority, keeping the region without numerous victims will be practically impossible. Make Slovyansk into another Grozniy? It is unlikely that any of the Ukrainian politicians or generals would want to sin so much just for the sake of territorial integrity. Rivers of blood are not the price that should be paid in the XXI century for retaining territories. Besides, having retained Donbass in Ukraine with brute force, Kyiv would have to govern it in the format of current Chechnya – appoint a powerful vassal with dictator powers there, which would flood the region with money, but hold everyone in a steel harness. Otherwise terrorism cannot be beaten. However this is the problem: the rest of Ukraine might not want to become the oppressor. The people that have fought against dictatorship on Maidan would probably not want to become a collective dictator themselves. This just isn’t us.

    It sometimes seems that the citizens of Lugansk and Donetsk Regions see themselves as a prise in the fight between two powers – Russian and Ukrainian. They are ready to habitually subordinate to the stronger, to adapt, they are ready for colonisation, and the colonisation would be both the re-establishment of the Ukrainian government, and the creation of an unacknowledged black hole with Russia’s support – the People’s Republic of Donetsk. If this is not so, then it is time for Donbass to speak up. In the nearest future. Donbass, who are you with? Many await the response in Ukraine. And hoping that soon Donbass would overcome its fear. - Sergey Visotskiy, LIGA

    I have a friend in Donetsk. She's against the so-called, People’s Republic of Donetsk, but she's afraid to say something out loud. She's afraid, but will leave the region if it separates from Ukraine.

    The 'referendum' happened, but it's clear that it was a farce.
    All the Ukrainians are waiting for the presidential elections now -- the temporary officials are hesitant to act strong and firm. Personally, I hope Poroshenko wins, I don't tryst the other candidates.
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  14. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    "The Self-defense of the South-East" for the first time published the data on the total losses in manpower and equipment of the Ukrainian army in the battles of Slavyansk.
    According to these data, for the month of warfare were killed, wounded or captured about seven hundred Ukrainian soldiers. Of them:
    - 310 fighters of "The Right sector", mainly joined the National guard
    - 120 soldiers of Kolomoisky's special battalions "Dnepr" and "Azov"
    - 70 foreign mercenaries (Polish PMC "ASBS Othago" lost 6 people, American PMC "Graystone" 14 soldiers, American PMC "Асаdemi" (until 2009 also known as Blackwater) - 50 people)
    - 65 soldiers of 95th airmobile brigade of Zhytomyr
    - 25 employees of the CIA and the FBI (13 killed, 12 wounded)
    - 20 employees of the interior Ministry.

    Also the Ukrainian side has the considerable losses in military equipment. During the battles have been destroyed:

    - eight military helicopters (Mi-24, Mi-17 and Mi-8")
    - 1 Hummer
    - 2 "Kamaz"
    - 3 howitzers D-30
    - 8 BTR
    - 4 BMP
    "Such losses testify: there is not a fight against a bunch of terrorists in the South-East, but full-scale civil war, in which Kiev regime is fighting against the entire population of the South-Eastern regions," stressed the source of the self-defense forces of Slavyansk.

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  15. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    Turchinov, Yatsenuk, and the other guys who come to power by coup. That's junta, they weren't elected by people, they took power by themselves.
    That's propaganda of The U.S. Department Of State. Here's take a look:

    Yeah, this farce will be on 25th May. And we'll see how this unofficial king of Maidan Porochenko wins.

    Not exactly the same. Basically, Russia wants Ukraine's staying out of any blocks and alliances, but the USA is dragging Ukraine in NATO (or at least to set up NATO bases in Ukrainian territory) in order to break down Russia's defense. That's the point of this coup in a nutshell.

    Now there're people who suppose that the victims more over 50 people. It's about 150, may be 200. I tend to believe it. Many of them were murdered, beaten by iron sticks, some of them choke by chloroform, those who survive in flames were beaten and forced to crawl on their knees and shout: "Glory to Ukraine!" through so called "corridor of shame" in the crowd of Maidan activists, which kicked them. Real patriots, yeah? And this is another lie: "The reported numbers do not indicate that they are very accurate with their fire". I can't post here those videos, but you can find it on Youtube.com. Here's the names of some them:

    Одесса. Дом профсоюза. Выживших избивают пожар.
    Украина Одесса Горит Дом Профсоюзов Odessa 02 05 2014

    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2014
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  16. jchanic

    jchanic Well-Known Member

    I promised myself to drop this conversation with you but I can't let this go.

    Isn't Ukraine a sovreign nation that can decide what it wants to do? What does Russia have to do with this? I understand Russia has a desire to dictate what the Ukraine should do, but that does not, under any civilized code, allow them to actually force their will on another nation.

  17. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    Yes it is, theoretically. But in fact, no. Now Washington is running the Ukraine. When Joe Biden was sitting in the chair of the Ukrainian prime-minister, the head of CIA was telling to SBU what to do... well, you can decide for yourself who's running the show in Ukraine. So no, Ukraine isn't a sovreign nation any more. And it's not Ukrainian Government has power to make decisions in Ukraine, but Washington.

    No, Russia doesn't want to dictate, Russia's just doing her best to defend herself. One more time: It's not Russia made coup in Mexico or Ottava, but the USA did it in Kiev. The USA had brought their puppets to power in Ukraine in order to join Ukraine in NATO (or at least to enter NATO troops there under pretext of protection of the population in case of civil war). Russia's just react on situaton, nothing more. Well, how'd you think would do the US in the same scenario in Mexico or Ottava? I suppose, would enter troops there, first of all.
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  18. jchanic

    jchanic Well-Known Member

    Mr. Ace, this is my last (for sure!) posting in this thread addressed to you. Invading a country is NOT a defense. The US is not "running the Ukraine". We have enough problems here at home to worry about without running an entire separate country. Have you forgotten that a Communist country is located about 90 miles from the US border? Of course, I'm talking about Cuba, which has NOT been invaded by the US government for the more than 60 years it's been in existence. Yes, the US has imposed sanctions on Cuba, but it's still there (and not doing so well.)

  19. hossenpepper

    hossenpepper Don't worry. I have a permit!!!

    I'm convinced. Russia is just an innocent group of folks with nothing but best intentions for everyone and always have been. The US is evil and the Ukraine is apparently a bunch of lemmings who just can't see the truth.

    If only Mr Ace would post 97% of his comments about SK's writings like he has with this Ukrainian situation, I'd understand all that too. Given the supposition of how we all live in a propaganda-only machine, you'd think one would be lead to the conclusion that we of all people understand propaganda in its purest forms. And those whose job it is to purport it to us all. But then again, we are all stupid and could never see through a thin veil of bullsh!t like that. :0:
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  20. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    Look, first of all, there's no Russian ivasion in Ukraine, for now. And I hope it won't be necessary. This is an extreme mesure. It's possible if the USA&NATO wouldn't leave to Russia the other way, as well as it was in case of Georgia, back in 2008. Secondly, why do you think that it couldn't be a defense? It could, like it was for the USA in times of Caribian crisis, for example.

    You must be kidding. Then why the USA spent 5 billion $ on "development of democracy" in Ukraine? Nuland&McCaine performed on Maidan. Direct assistance of opposition to Yanukovich and recognizing the coup as legal change of power in Ukraine. Then Joe Biden is sitting in the chair of the ukrainian prime-minister and literly tells to the Government what they must do. Well, as I said, consider for yourself.

    You forgot about men in Pentagon and weapon industry, geopolitical interests, etc. To take under control the Ukraine is just another step to Russia. To locate PRO-radars in the East-Ukraine and set up NATO navy base in Crimea is a massive strike on Russia's defense and deprivation Russia of her influense in the Black Sea region. Think, the USA spent an enormous money on military budget, much more than any country in the world. Is it just for nothing?
    Good instanse. That's right, Cuba doesn't represent the threat to the USA, now+ she's choked by sanctions, so the USA has nothing worry about. There's no russian military bases, radars,etc. But when the USSR was trying to locate there their missiles what did do the USA? That's right, tried to eliminate the threat by invading in Cuba, and they were right. The USA has the right to defense herself by any means, so as Russia has now. If it needs it might be entering of the troops, personally, I don't think it happens, I suppose people of Ukraine will drive out this "Government" in Kiev by themselves.

    No, not at all. It's just geopolitics. I wouldn't use such terms as "good", "bad", "innocent", etc. I don't hate the USA or any other country. I don't like the modern US forein policy, because it represents the real threat to my own country, that's true. And I don't think Ukraine is a bunch of lemmings, Ukraine is a brotherly country to us, russians. And people of Ukraine are our brothers, many of us have friends&relatives there. But it's not ukrainian people are running the country now, but a bunch of traitors in Kiev, they've plunged the country in civil war already and what else they could do? Too bad, Ukraine has become the battlegroud between the USA and Russia as well as Korea in the 50's.
    Last edited: May 22, 2014
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