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The situation in Ukraine

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Out of Order, Feb 27, 2014.

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  1. hossenpepper

    hossenpepper Don't worry. I have a permit!!!

    I think you overestimate the amount that US citizens care. For us to get involved with force, there has to be national support. After all, as we often say, this isn't Russia. :)

    And you forgot Viet Nam. And Afghanistan.
    Serhiy Krykun, VultureLvr45 and Neesy like this.
  2. jchanic

    jchanic Well-Known Member

    The US never invaded Cuba--all we did was stop Soviet ships from delivering weapons to the island. The Soviets were the ones establishing missile sites on the island. Get your facts right--just don't believe the propaganda you've grown up with.

  3. Moderator

    Moderator Ms. Mod Administrator

    We do have to take responsibility for the failed Bay of Pigs mission. I'd like to think that we at least do admit to the mistakes we've made and not try to revise history as some here *ahem* do.
  4. hossenpepper

    hossenpepper Don't worry. I have a permit!!!

    I hate to pick at straws here folks, but ya know they did reveal what REALLY happened in that X-Men movie a couple years ago...
    Kurben, Mr.Ace, VultureLvr45 and 2 others like this.
  5. jchanic

    jchanic Well-Known Member

    Ms. Mod, I don't completely agree with you on this. There were NO US troops involved in the Bay of Pigs mission, but I do agree that possibly some rogue elements of the CIA may have been involved in the planning, poor though it was. I seriously doubt any of the Kennedy administration had direct involvement.

    Neesy likes this.
  6. Serhiy Krykun

    Serhiy Krykun Active Member

    Tomorrow, on the 25th, it's the presidential elections day -- it can be the beginning of the end for all the troubles. Can be... I hope, it will.
    Personally, I have no firm belief in any of the candidates, but one of them has my sympathies.

    Wish us luck, we'll be needing it.

    PS: sane people in the tread, I salute you!
    jchanic, FlakeNoir, morgan and 2 others like this.
  7. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    :) Definitly not. Wait a second, are you going to say that the US government needs the US people's approval to invade in a foregn county? I don't think so.

    Yeah, those are similar situations.

    Going back to Ukraine: Donetsk and Lugansk are united in the new state - Novorossia.
    Today Donetsk People's Republic and Lugansk People's Republic signed the document on merging within the state Novorossia. This event took place in Donetsk on the Congress of representatives of the South-East, which had been initiated by parliamentary Deputy Oleh Tsaryov. The document about the Association was signed by Alexander Borodai, the head the government of the Donetsk People's Republic, and Alexey Karjakin - the head of the Lugansk People's Republic. The Governor Pavel Gubarev said that Novorossia is going to consolidate eight South-Eastern regions of Ukraine:
    - We do not recognize the President and Parliament of Ukraine, and the Donetsk and Luhansk Republic are independent States. We would do recognize the government of the new elected President, if they are ready would recognize the independence of the republics of Donbass. Secondly - they must immediately withdraw their troops beyond our national republics and cease all military actions.
    The Congress of people's representatives of the regions of the South-East of Ukraine approved the creation of a "People's front", which is to protect civilians from the Nazi gangs, wich have funded by Kolomoisky and other oligarchs and foreign intelligence services.
    - Among us there are supporters of the resetting of Ukraine on the principles of federations and confederations, and followers of soft policy of decentralization, " said Tsarev. - Both of them inspired by the idea of Novorossia. Also we are committed to a wide autonomy and self-free regions.
    Tsarev also said that while oligarchs meddle in politics, people will live in poverty.
    - The revolution of Maidan couldn't take place without their assistance. The rebellions in Donetsk and Lugansk regions became the result of this revolution. The people of Donetsk and Lugansk regions had rose ans declared their people's republics and later the independent states. But I'm sure we will achieve more. We must remove all of the oligarchs from power in DND and LNR, but this does not mean that it will be rampant nationalization. Just in the country needs to restore order.
    Neesy likes this.
  8. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    Good look with your nation's elections, Serhiy. I realize that there's still a rough road ahead with no assurance of stability, but I hope this is a beginning to some level of stability and peace for your country.
    Neesy and FlakeNoir like this.
  9. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    Afghanistan is not like Vietnam or Iraq.

    It's growing more difficult to convey the national shock, horror, and anger with the events of 9/11. It was a direct attack - call it terror, but it was a direct war attack - on our soil. No different to the country's mentality than how South Korea felt in 1950, or Poland in 1939, or France in 1940, or Russia in 1941 - or, for that matter, the U.S. on December 7, 1941.

    We learned in quick order that the people who engineered and carried out the attack were housed in Afghanistan, being coddled and protected by that country's government. Well... if you poke a sleeping wolf, you can expect to get gnawed on.

    Vietnam, it started out as deployment at the request of an ally, but it grew out of proportion and counterproductive. Gulf War I, fine. We were countering an invasion of a friendly country (that just happened to have a lot of oil) by a megalomaniac. Gulf War II was reprehensible and embarrassing, as uncomfortable for us as the Soviet Union's deployment into Afghanistan (for much the same reason the U.S. deployed in Vietnam), but we got out a little more gracefully (but not much) and with fewer casualties. For what that's worth.

    But those other theaters were not like what we were doing in Afghanistan. There was no other comparison to having a country house people who were carrying out devastating attacks on our soil.
    Moderator, Mr.Ace and Neesy like this.
  10. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    Agreed. I mean the USSR war in Afghanistan. Here's of what I'm taking about:

    Neesy likes this.
  11. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    I ain't respect Victor Yanukovich but he's right in what he said today that after the elections people saw a blood bath instead of peace and stability.
    Ukraine presidential elections caused deaths, suffering, said former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych.
    People expected peace from the early presidential elections in Ukraine, Yanukovych said. “The majority of Ukrainians thought that the new authorities will overcome the political crisis and bring about peaceful times. The people are tired of confrontation that led to a full-scale war,” he noted.
    “Finally, it happened. The president of Ukraine has been elected. The surprise was replaced with shock. Instead of stability and peace people saw a blood bath,” Yanukovych said.
    Taken from here: http://en.itar-tass.com/world/733948

    I do believe Poroshenko tries to supress the resistanse of Donbass until his inauguration on the 7th june. He'll flood with blood the entire of South-East of Ukraine in order to success. Now in Ukraine is raging a full-scale civil war. Keiv's junta and Poroshenko are responsiple for it.
    Neesy likes this.
  12. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    The introduction of Russian weapons and Russian citizens into eastern Ukraine is definitely a good chunk of it. Yeesh.

    But we appreciate being updated on the Russian line on it.
    Neesy likes this.
  13. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    Not so much. As for russian weapons, well, the ukrainian army uses it also, the russian weapons is widespread in Ukraine. Russian sitizens? Yes they are volunteers, but the main contingent of the South-East army are ukrainians. Though, I hope, Russia helps Donbass unofficially.
    Neesy likes this.
  14. Kurben

    Kurben The Fool on the Hill

    Putin Said that he would respect the outcome of the election whomever won it. That doesn't go well with helping separatist on Ukrainian soil. Officially or inofficially.
    Serhiy Krykun, Neesy and Moderator like this.
  15. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    Well, Donbass didn't partake in this elections, and they didn't choose this guy - Poroshenko, they decided they way on the 11th May, so...
    Neesy likes this.
  16. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    Did Putin say that? I thought that he did. Somewhere around May 23, maybe.

    The Donbass situation is interesting. I guess if through threats, intimidation, and violence one keeps 80% of the polls closed down, one can then claim invalid results because the polls aren't open.
    Neesy, FlakeNoir and Moderator like this.
  17. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    Well, at first, if he would respect doesn't mean to recognize them as legal, at once,I suppose, as well as Russia didn't recognize the independence of Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republcs... for now :wink: Secondly, Poroshenko isn't the president until his inauguration on 7th june, so it means, as if this ATO is providing by Turchinov. What will happen after the 7th? well, let's see. And the last, I said I hope that Russia helps Donbass,is this so or not - I don't know. Personaly, I wish.

    Do not repeat the mistake of the Ukrainian authority - one can not call "terrorists" of the 7 million people of his country. People decide their fate by themselves in referendum on 11th May 2014, so we have Novorossia now instead of the South-East Ukraine.
    Neesy likes this.
  18. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    Sure. What he says and what he does can be very opposite things.

    It's pretty well established that 80% of the polls in Donbass were closed due to threats and actions of the Russian nationalists there. Some of the Ukrainians in Donbass (and Crimea, for that matter) left the region to exercise their voting rights elsewhere.
    jchanic, Neesy and FlakeNoir like this.
  19. Walter Oobleck

    Walter Oobleck keeps coming back...or going, and going, and going

    I don't know what's going on in the Ukraine. From what I gather, there are those who want to go one direction, those in another area that want to go in yet another direction. This is like my situation (and those who live in the U.P.) here in the U.P. The population center of Detroit, the southeast quadrant of Michigan sets the rules and the rest of the state has to abide by that. Bool sheet of the purest ray serene. Puck em! If there's a contingent in one area that wants to do one thing, let them. If there's a contingent in another area that wants another thing, let them. What would happen otherwise? If it is anything like here in Michigan, the southeast quadrant would get ALL of the money for their schools...often double what we get U.P. here. Puck em! This has been going on for years. And if that's not enough, there's some YAHOO in California that believes they know better how things should be run in Michigan. Puck em! Puck Putin! He's a billionaire, has all those gas companies...what difference between him and that Yahoo who won the election, another billionaire. Let the people have their garden.
    Neesy likes this.
  20. Mr.Ace

    Mr.Ace Well-Known Member

    Indeed? I think he was pretty successive, so far.

    May be, not many. You see, these regions - Donetsk&Lugansk are russian speakers, naturally they vote for indipendence and to tighten bonds to Russia. Many of those people have rlatives in Russia. Don't need to push or force them for it. If one of the new laws of junta was to ban russian language, so... If someone would try to ban to you speak in English, how'd you like it?
    P.S. Russian nationalists? Who are they?
    Neesy likes this.
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