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What makes you think you're going to heaven?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Dr. Fudd, Mar 8, 2014.


Are you going to heaven or hell?

  1. Heaven

  2. Hell

  3. Neither exist

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  1. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    Mistakes are part of development. So is correcting the mistakes. So is improving on what's available. So is plowing through previously undiscovered ground.

    And it's a good thing we do that and don't stay hidebound to one literal point of view that nothing can disturb regardless of the facts. We wouldn't have these lights and structures and technology.
  2. Dr. Fudd

    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    I don't understand, are you recanting your previous claim? "I think that's an inaccurate dichotomy." And now agreeing that what we have is built on previous mistakes?
  3. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    No, of course not. You said what predominates our species, being right or wrong? I said that's an inaccurate dichotomy. The other things that I listed (opportunistic survival, striving for convenience, and social dominance) are examples of the things that predominate our species.

    Now, to get us to where we are technologically, we made mistakes, we corrected mistakes, we advanced existing things that were already correct, and we explored new territory. That's four aspects there. But mistakes predominate? We couldn't get to where we are without correcting the mistakes. So in terms of technology, I would say that solutions predominate.

    A technology example. Developing an incandescent light isn't a mistake. It involved over 1,000 failures to get to the success. Those weren't mistakes. They were steps on the ladder. The fact that fluorescent lights or LEDs are better doesn't make the incandescent light a mistake. It was what was available with the technology at the time.
    Neesy likes this.
  4. Dr. Fudd

    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    Mistake: 1. An error or fault resulting from defective judgment, deficient knowledge, or carelessness.
    2. A misconception or misunderstanding.
    Failure:1. The condition or fact of not achieving the desired end or ends 2.Nonperformance of what is requested or expected; omission:
    Solution:The method or process of solving a problem.

    If you're going to call them solutions, then for a solution you first need a problem, that would require a mistake in or failure of the previous attempt.

    Even if you put a politically correct word in the place of another word, it doesn't change the fact that we've built everything we have now on previous mistakes and failures. Half full or half empty, it's still just half.
  5. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    It doesn't require a mistake. "It's dark and cold. I want to see and stay warm." You start a fire. It's a technological solution to a problem that doesn't require a mistake.

    I have no idea what "politically correct" word is being talked about here. I'm trying to be precise. We got to where we are by getting past mistakes and plowing new ground. We're still making mistakes. We'll make more mistakes. We're still working on resolving some and we've resolved others. We're still exploring new ground that will see its own share of mistakes, solutions, failures, and successes.

    True, but it matters where you started whether the glass is being filled or emptied.
  6. Dr. Fudd

    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    We were talking about where were are now in technology weren't we? Not primitive needs. But since you brought it up, how many mistakes were made trying to create that first fire necessary to learn a more efficient way to produce fire? All solutions involve mistakes and failures.

    You wrote:"I would say that solutions predominate." I was referring to you using the word solution for mistake or failure.I'm confused as to why you're arguing this when you're saying exactly what I've said. We've built what we know on previous mistakes.
    Neesy likes this.
  7. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    I was using an example, a basic one. Building a fire was a significant step forward in technology for humans.

    But carry it to cellphones. There were problems solved and mistakes made in getting my S4 to my ear. But when I take a photo or light a room or play a game or use it to drive to a location or .... or... what else? ... oh, yeah, or make a call with it, it's not because mistakes resulted in a phone. Solutions resulted in a phone.

    Well, a solution is quite a bit different than a mistake or failure. It's not a PC term. It's a different meaning entirely.

    And the reason we're debating is because I believe you were implying, "We make more mistakes than anything else, so your conclusions vis-a-vis religion are probably a mistake" (and I guess I could've said, "But so then, probably, are yours").

    But you said, Which predominates society? Being wrong or right? And I don't think that which predominates society falls into those two buckets.
  8. Dr. Fudd

    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

  9. Dr. Fudd

    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    I agree. It's your problem.
    You're the perfect person to ask this question: You've told me that you believe when you die that nothing happens after you die. If I tell you that I believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, died to pay the debt of our sins, rose again on the third day and that believing in Him is the only way to heaven, am I forcing my beliefs down your throat?
  10. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    Well, if that's not what you were implying, it won't be the first time I'm wrong, but that sure seemed to be the implication. I'm open to understand more fully what you were saying and meaning.
  11. Terry B

    Terry B Well-Known Member

    Not unless you tell me that's the ONLY thing I should believe. Trust me - I've been through that. I've had more bibles shoved under my nose than I want to remember because someone down the road thought I needed the benefit of THEIR religion. I was baptized on Easter Sunday for crying out loud. I keep my Bible by my bedside. I believe in God, Jesus Christ and the "true" meanings of Christmas and Easter but I don't go around telling others they have to believe in it too. I certainly don't go door to door preaching the Gospel to people. I believe in all religions. You want to pray to Buddha - OK by me. You want to pray to Mohammed - OK by me. You want to pray to the chicken coop down the road - that's OK too. Just don't tell me I have to. So by telling me that you "believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, died to pay the debt of our sins, rose again on the third day and that believing in Him is the only way to heaven..." you're not forcing anything down my throat. You're just telling me what you believe. I don't believe in a great heavenly place after death. I only believe our bodies die and then there's nothing. I'm not telling you or anyone else you have to believe that too. Pretty simple - eh??
    Spideyman, danie and skimom2 like this.
  12. Dr. Fudd

    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    In my mind that's what I've told you, that there is only one way to believe. I go door to door inviting people to church and I share the gospel. I don't believe in all religions because I've looked at them and I don't see that they agree. Contrary to my thought that you were the perfect person to ask this question, you aren't. What you said, and there really wasn't enough there to come to a conclusion, didn't at first resemble a Christian denomination, but I see it now. I thought I was asking an atheist or agnostic by your comment but since you say you believe in Jesus, you're going to be at least a little tolerant of someone sharing the gospel.
    I have to tell you, although what I read in the bible doesn't allow me to believe that we have no concousness after we die, I completely understand the attraction to that doctrine. Some days I would love to believe that, to just be erased and spend eternity in a dreamless sleep, but I can't.
  13. Dr. Fudd

    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    You seem to be extremely vested in defending your position of, I'm not sure what to call it, anti-theism? "And it's a good thing we do that and don't stay hidebound to one literal point of view that nothing can disturb regardless of the facts. We wouldn't have these lights and structures and technology"
    I'm trying to establish common ground. I don't seem to be able to. It really doesn't matter whether or not you believe or don't believe in God, humans make a huge ratio of errors, mistakes and miscalculations in relation to the number of times we get something right. That's what I'm trying to say. If you want me to contend that Christians, to single out the group I'm in, have made many mistake I could site a even number if not greater number of mistakes and atrocities that have been committed in the name of God to those mistakes and atrocities committed by non-believers . You would contend that you could name a number of atrosities that were committed in the name of God. I'm fully aware of slaughter that bible speaks of God requiring in the old testiment. All of that said, do people make a higher ratio of errors getting to the desired result of all we enjoy today, than they do achieving the desired result? Or in another way, has it taken more solutions to get the desired result than favorable results? and is it within the dictionary description of the words mistake, failure, error, miscalculation and wrong, to accurately describe those un-favorable results? Or do we have to stay in the grip of semantics?
  14. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    I'm not anti-theist at all. While I think the existence of God, or gods, is unproven and unprovable, there are good subjective ("I feel the presence") and objective (logical constructs) reasons for one to believe so, perhaps me as well.

    If you want to argue that a chapter claiming that flowering plants existed before the sun is an authority, yeah, there's not much common ground there. But I didn't get the feeling that you were trying to establish common ground as much as advance your opinion. If my first paragraph here establishes common ground, hey, let's spread a tablecloth and toast. Or maybe this: I agree that as humans we tend to be wrong much of the time. But we get to our goal by finding and walking the correct path, not by continuing on the wrong turns.

    I'm not part of the "religion causes death" crowd. I'm part of the "humans cause death" crowd. Religion, or money, or power, or racial/ethnic superiority complex, or megalomania, or whatever else provides the excuses for humans to follow their violent paths. So I appreciate you putting words in my mouth about what I would argue, but that's not so. Nor am I here to talk about scriptural origins, internal consistency, or appalling countenanced behavior. If you want to lead us there, I might go, but I'd prefer not to, not because I'm insecure about it, but it just doesn't seem like polite ground, let alone common.
    Terry B and skimom2 like this.
  15. Dr. Fudd

    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    I was just listing the culmination of arguments I've heard but made the fatal mistake of saying would instead of could.
  16. Terry B

    Terry B Well-Known Member

    This thread has gone about as far as it should.
    Autumnlyn likes this.
  17. Kurben

    Kurben The Fool on the Hill

    Well I do not believe in god or heaven or hell. I think that when we die we go for good. no coming back in any way, No heaven, no light. Whats left is bones and flesh that starts to decompose( is that the right word? can't remember the word right now.) If a person is real lucky the only way that he can be seen for future generations is if hes preserved as a fossile (or as a mummy but they dont last as long). Boring perhaps but that is what i think.
  18. Grandpa

    Grandpa Well-Known Member

    When you have to search through your former post to figure out the reference, wonder what it has to do with anything, and then still want to respond....

    You're probably right.
    Terry B likes this.
  19. FlakeNoir

    FlakeNoir Original Kiwi© SKMB® Moderator

    Dr. Fudd--Others think this thread has run its course, as OP, I'll ask if you agree before closing?
    Autumnlyn and Terry B like this.
  20. Dr. Fudd

    Dr. Fudd Bored Taster

    The topic of the thread hasn't really even been discussed. The question was, what makes you think you're going to heaven? The majority of the people posting either don't believe in God or that there is a heaven.
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