The Writings of Lucy Maud Montgomery

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AnnaMarie

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I have read all the Anne books ( at least i think it is all) but don't think they hold the same standard all the way through. They are good up to about the point when Anne and Gilbert gets married. After that i think they slowly start to lose the momentum they had. Not meaning they are bad, just that they are not as good as they were. And the first book is a standout. But thats almost always the case with a series i think.

The original book, and one or two after, Maud wrote because she wanted to. But then, she wanted to write other things, and people kept asking for more Anne...always wanting to know what happened, and she would write another book for them, and still they asked...and then what. So, it's not surprising the later books didn't grab readers as much.

I heard she once said she wanted to kill Anne so she could move on to other stories. I don't know if that's true or not.
 

staropeace

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The original book, and one or two after, Maud wrote because she wanted to. But then, she wanted to write other things, and people kept asking for more Anne...always wanting to know what happened, and she would write another book for them, and still they asked...and then what. So, it's not surprising the later books didn't grab readers as much.

I heard she once said she wanted to kill Anne so she could move on to other stories. I don't know if that's true or not.
Arthur Conan Doyle had the same problem with Holmes.
 
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Donald Miller

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We seem to have veered off the subject again but that often happens here. I think it is the term formal study that i disagree with. To write it is obviously good to read different sorts of literature and thereby get familiar with different angles to writing. But you don't need to study it. You can of course do it if it fits your temper. But i don't feel it is necessary. You can become a good, perhaps even great writer by just reading and writing. Trying and trying again. And i think great literature spans many genres, including SF and Fantasy. Of course you find a lot of bad writers but there are really good ones to. The same with the classics, sure they are classic but that doesn't mean they are great. Some are and some are not. What is considered great is very much an opinion and a signal of the times taste. For example, during a big part of the seventh century shakespeare was not played and almost forgotten. In his time and now he is raised to the skies. "Great literature" is a very relative term. It varies with time, person, and place on the globe. It is not something fixed in stone.
Well, I'm not debating the issue just for the sake of debating. There's a point I've tried to make. I think I've made it. It's up to others to decide whether or not they will heed the point about study. In his book "On Writing," Mr. King recommends Strunk and White's "The Elements of Style." One wonders how many people have followed that advice. Here's the first sentence from the book. "This book is intended for use in English courses in which the practice of composition is combined with the study of literature."

It's easier to say, "Badges! We don't need no stinking badges!" and try to get what one is after that way. When that approach becomes a problem is when someone expects other people to read their work. It's even more of a problem when the issue is multiplied a
thousandfold by an internet filled with people completely clueless about how the craft of writing is done with competence. Consider the paragraph of Montgomery's I used to begin this thread. I've never written anything that good. And it is obviously good.

Montgomery didn't get to a place where she could write like that without considerable effort. What she wrote are the well-crafted words of someone who studied, thought, prepared, and executed her work with diligent intent. She aimed at writing a great book in her career. In her own assessment, she didn't do that. But she came closer than the thousands of writers who have followed her. I also submit that her writing is timeless, that it will be just as extraordinary an
accomplishment by truly literate people of any future time as it is considered to be now.
 
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Kurben

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I do not say you shall not put an effort in your writing. I only say there are many roads to success. Yours is one of them. But there are others. Many good writers became good without a formal study of the craft. They read and wrote and read and wrote. They was inspired by other authors and they imitated some authors and in due time they might find their own style. Not by a formal study of the craft but by trying to improve again and again. I remember Bill Denbrough in IT. The scene were he is going to a creative writing class and suddenly rises up and says: I don't understand any of this. Why can't you guys just let a story be a story. Why must it be anti- or pro anything?" I'm not qouting exactly correct but close enough. It is longer in the book.

When it comes to Montgomery i agree. That is some very fine writing. But i don't know the backstory of montgomery so don't know how she reached the point where she could write this, which road she followed. But i don't agree about the timelessness. We think it is great now and we can only hope that future generations will think so too. But that is impossible to know and i think it is unlikely that it will always, at any time in the future, be so. Opinions differ over time. Societys change and thereby also the opinion of what is good and bad. (or great).
 

Mr Nobody

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We seem to have switched positions on the subject of studying literature. I've maintained that a formal study of literary elements is necessary in the sense of it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. As you've mentioned, it's possible for an alert person to catch all of this on his own. But a formal study indicates that someone really has become familiar with elements.

I think history indicates that people, as often as not, are not always able to spot great literature when they see it. Melville's publisher made five hundred copies of "Moby Dick." Only fifty sold in Melville's lifetime. Even an experienced artist can be unsure of whether he's on the right track or not. For instance, Jack Nicholson showed up to work on the set of "As Good As It Gets" one day and shocked the producer by offering to leave the project without pay. He thought his performance wasn't working. The Academy thought otherwise and gave him the award for best actor.

Right now, I'm reading "No Country for Old Men." It's mesmerizing. Yet there is no formal backstory. One needs to pick that up as one goes along. There's no traditional description of landscape or descriptions of what people are doing with a cigarette or cup of coffee. No descriptions of interiors not absolutely essential to the plot.

All of these considerations tell me that a writer, if he can, is far better off not relying upon the opinions of a publisher. If a writer knows that his work is headed toward or within the realm he wants it to be, he's been true to his own vision--and nobody can take that away from him. Joseph Conrad proved that. He left a stunning body of work behind him, each book a piece of art in its own way--and he never wavered from his vision of what he wanted to write about or the style in which he wanted to tell it. His style is unique in literature. He was mostly popular with fellow writers in his day, and even know, if not for "Heart of Darkness," he wouldn't be very well known--no more so than Ford Madox Ford.

.

Not really. It is, simply, that in the early stages - probably before you even begin to write - you'll pick up lessons on writing through reading. Pretty soon you get to a point where you can spot good and bad writing. If you're only interested in reading, you can skim a few pages, assess the quality, and make a value judgement right there.
However, if you're writing, the odd 'correctional' volume can come in handy (I'm not saying you have to actively seek out the bad or wallow in it, mind) because the question then can be 'Why isn't it working?'
(Moby Dick, btw, bored me rigid within a dozen pages. More on that in a sec.)
When I said to write a lot before, I wasn't perhaps as clear as I ought to have been. Once you've learned the basics (which, tbh, you've probably done through reading, whether you're conscious of it or not), have developed the beginnings of your style, and so on, it's time to practice. Initially, there'll be a relatively steep learning curve where you discover what works for you as a writer and what doesn't. After that, there's just the work. There's no constant, incremental improvement. You hit more or less of a plateau. It's the same in sport, and as in sport, a writer will add experience to his or her ability. Over time, they'll become proficient at hiding their ongoing weaknesses - and there will be some, maybe many - and play more to their strengths. Ultimately, they'll hit their peak, where everything comes together and they may even appear to transcend what seemed to be their maximum (it's really just an illusion; it's actually maximum ability allied to - or alloyed with - consistency). In the end, they'll come off their peak of performance, the 'brilliance' will show only in winks and flashes again, then, one day, they'll be done. It's just that, in the case of writers (or actors, or musicians), this peak can last for years and years. Decades, even. Or it can last for one book, or a short story, or an album, a single song, one performance in the right role... No one ever knows.

You've said before that Montgomery could write beautifully (agreed), but regretted never writing a great work. Then there's the comment on Melville and Moby Dick.
I want to suggest there are three things in play: ability to write; ability to generate ideas; and ability to tell a story. These things form 'clines', with every story - and every writer - falling into a place somewhere along each, which then combine to form the whole (on a story-by-story basis, which is why writers don't always, or can't, incrementally improve).
Can Montgomery write? Definitely. Tell a story? Yes. But what about the ideas? Are the ideas behind the story strong enough, and when the ideas are there, is the storytelling all that it should be/usually is, or is the idea so good that it proved beyond her ability to fully grasp it? If there's a reason why she never wrote a great book (at least in her own opinion; as with the example you use of Jack Nicholson, none of us are the best judges of our own efforts), the answer will lie somewhere in there.
The problem I have with Moby Dick isn't in the idea or even most of the writing (though I'd argue that it fluctuates between the accomplished and the turgid, as if Melville was trying too hard), it's the story. For the amount of words he appears to have wanted to use, he doesn't tell it quite well enough. A story should interest and excite (perhaps even educate a little, in a gentle way). For many readers, Moby Dick doesn't. (The same can be said for War and Peace, Crime and Punishment, Frankenstein, Dracula, or Great Expectations and Pride and Prejudice, to name but a few.)
That may indicate a deplorable lack of taste, but most likely it simply shows that appreciation is subjective. (If I was doing this anything like properly, I'd say that Moby Dick appears to be dull due to the high level of lexical density in Melville's prose; instead of giving us a pleasantly runny syrup of a story, he's presented us with molasses. The story is too simple a one to sustain the writing.)
Other writers have brilliant ideas, but are let down by either their actual writing or their storytelling ability - arguably, Arthur C Clarke is a prime example of an ideas man who didn't always write well, or when he wrote well, forgot to tell the story in an interesting or exciting way. H G Wells, too, come to that.
Having read Peter Blauner's The Intruder (which SK mentions in his list of recent-ish reads at the end of On Writing) and Man of the Hour, the impression I was left with was that the books had good central premises and were told well enough (decent pace, etc), but that the writing itself let the story/ies down in certain (often key) areas.

But enough of this. On with the work itself!
 

Kurben

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Apr 12, 2014
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The original book, and one or two after, Maud wrote because she wanted to. But then, she wanted to write other things, and people kept asking for more Anne...always wanting to know what happened, and she would write another book for them, and still they asked...and then what. So, it's not surprising the later books didn't grab readers as much.

I heard she once said she wanted to kill Anne so she could move on to other stories. I don't know if that's true or not.
That would explain it. Didn't know that. A common problem for an author though.
 

Donald Miller

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2014
86
341
Sarasota
Not really. It is, simply, that in the early stages - probably before you even begin to write - you'll pick up lessons on writing through reading. Pretty soon you get to a point where you can spot good and bad writing. If you're only interested in reading, you can skim a few pages, assess the quality, and make a value judgement right there.
However, if you're writing, the odd 'correctional' volume can come in handy (I'm not saying you have to actively seek out the bad or wallow in it, mind) because the question then can be 'Why isn't it working?'
(Moby Dick, btw, bored me rigid within a dozen pages. More on that in a sec.)
When I said to write a lot before, I wasn't perhaps as clear as I ought to have been. Once you've learned the basics (which, tbh, you've probably done through reading, whether you're conscious of it or not), have developed the beginnings of your style, and so on, it's time to practice. Initially, there'll be a relatively steep learning curve where you discover what works for you as a writer and what doesn't. After that, there's just the work. There's no constant, incremental improvement. You hit more or less of a plateau. It's the same in sport, and as in sport, a writer will add experience to his or her ability. Over time, they'll become proficient at hiding their ongoing weaknesses - and there will be some, maybe many - and play more to their strengths. Ultimately, they'll hit their peak, where everything comes together and they may even appear to transcend what seemed to be their maximum (it's really just an illusion; it's actually maximum ability allied to - or alloyed with - consistency). In the end, they'll come off their peak of performance, the 'brilliance' will show only in winks and flashes again, then, one day, they'll be done. It's just that, in the case of writers (or actors, or musicians), this peak can last for years and years. Decades, even. Or it can last for one book, or a short story, or an album, a single song, one performance in the right role... No one ever knows.

You've said before that Montgomery could write beautifully (agreed), but regretted never writing a great work. Then there's the comment on Melville and Moby Dick.
I want to suggest there are three things in play: ability to write; ability to generate ideas; and ability to tell a story. These things form 'clines', with every story - and every writer - falling into a place somewhere along each, which then combine to form the whole (on a story-by-story basis, which is why writers don't always, or can't, incrementally improve).
Can Montgomery write? Definitely. Tell a story? Yes. But what about the ideas? Are the ideas behind the story strong enough, and when the ideas are there, is the storytelling all that it should be/usually is, or is the idea so good that it proved beyond her ability to fully grasp it? If there's a reason why she never wrote a great book (at least in her own opinion; as with the example you use of Jack Nicholson, none of us are the best judges of our own efforts), the answer will lie somewhere in there.
The problem I have with Moby Dick isn't in the idea or even most of the writing (though I'd argue that it fluctuates between the accomplished and the turgid, as if Melville was trying too hard), it's the story. For the amount of words he appears to have wanted to use, he doesn't tell it quite well enough. A story should interest and excite (perhaps even educate a little, in a gentle way). For many readers, Moby Dick doesn't. (The same can be said for War and Peace, Crime and Punishment, Frankenstein, Dracula, or Great Expectations and Pride and Prejudice, to name but a few.)
That may indicate a deplorable lack of taste, but most likely it simply shows that appreciation is subjective. (If I was doing this anything like properly, I'd say that Moby Dick appears to be dull due to the high level of lexical density in Melville's prose; instead of giving us a pleasantly runny syrup of a story, he's presented us with molasses. The story is too simple a one to sustain the writing.)
Other writers have brilliant ideas, but are let down by either their actual writing or their storytelling ability - arguably, Arthur C Clarke is a prime example of an ideas man who didn't always write well, or when he wrote well, forgot to tell the story in an interesting or exciting way. H G Wells, too, come to that.
Having read Peter Blauner's The Intruder (which SK mentions in his list of recent-ish reads at the end of On Writing) and Man of the Hour, the impression I was left with was that the books had good central premises and were told well enough (decent pace, etc), but that the writing itself let the story/ies down in certain (often key) areas.

But enough of this. On with the work itself!
You and Kurben are making similar points.
Interestingly, I was listening Arthur C Clark talk about the making of 2001: A Space Odyssey, both the book and the movie. These were serious men taking on a serious project, and nothing like what most amuture writers do. Grecian vases are held in high esteem now, mostly due to the rarity of them. Many were made, nearly as many were broken. Of all the craftsmen, the potters were at or near the bottom of the barrel. That's what an amature writer, like me, is.

But there is a problem with that analogy. Clarke and Kubrick were the grand masons, so to speak. They were given the most respect, and money. But for all of that, they competed on a more or less even playing field with the cream of the crop who vied for the money and the fame.

What does the lowly artisan have? Well, in Greece the men competed. It made their days less monotonous and more rewarding. There are statements on some of those vases saying things like, "Let Horatio try and make a vase this good."

What does the lowly writer artisan have? Not much, at all. Mostly he comes across the attitude not of competition but of evasion. Instead of, "Hey, I wrote a story with better form, structure, texture, and color than you." (A healthy competition of the type that presses athletes like boxers and tennis players to reach further, yet within their grasp.) That's good. What isn't good is the posture of "Badges! We don't need no stinking badges!" as was kind of obliquely referenced in someone's statement about some kid getting up and walking out of a fictional creative writing class in Stephen King's book, "IT".

Yes, Kurben, cultures do change. But at the very minimum of what one might call Montgomery's achievement is that she represented the one she lived in well, and that's not an easy accomplishment--and I believe one that should not be diminished in anyway by speculations of how easy or difficult it was for her. I believe it was difficult, because becoming a master craftsman is never "easy." (Or very rarely so).

Well, we can clear this issue up by having Stephen King weigh in on it. this is his message board. So, after he says, I'm right and you're wrong, what will you say then?
;)
 
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Kurben

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Sigh. I never said it was easy, to become really good at something is very rarely easy. I only mentioned that there is different roads that leads to being a good writer. That does not mean that one road is easy and the other hard. Montgomery is a good writer but it was you who said it was something that was timeless and wouldn't change. I disagreed. Thats all. Sure she represented the one she lived in well. I never argued against that. I never speculated about her. I said i didn't know her background story. Thats not speculating.

And, by the way, what if he says you are wrong?;;D
But either way SK is not judge, jury and executioner. He is a man just like you and me. You go on doing what you feel is good for your writing. Others will take a different route but there is nothing wrong or right here. Just matters of opinion. Good luck with your writing
 

Mr Nobody

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Arthur C Clarke, Mark Twain, H G Wells, Stephen King (he'd probably blush to be put in this company, but IMO it's deserved), Charles Dickens, Lucy Maud Montgomery, Joseph Conrad, Edgar Allan Poe...you name 'em, they all had one thing in common: once upon a time, they were 'amateur' (or novice) writers. However, once they'd got their juvenilia out of the way, when the learning curve would have been at its most severe, they were all producing serious works of some quality despite their ongoing amateur/novice status. (And btw, 'amateur' could describe anyone not earning their sole or main living from writing - a bracket that, these days, would include some surprisingly famous names, perhaps most notable from the 'literary fiction' genre(s). The tag itself doesn't mean they're no good, or are putting out the equivalent of mass-produced vases. By the same token, 'professional' would denote a person who earns their living from their writing, but not all professionals would be as good or better than every amateur.)
A better term, especially as regards yourself, would be 'novice writer'. Now, I don't know how old you are or how long you've been writing, but it seems to be a more useful, and accurate, term than 'amateur'.

As regards the formal study of writing...here we go:
Approaching Literature (The Realist Novel; Shakespeare, Aphra Behn and the Canon; Literature and Gender; Romantic Writings) - overall course grade: B
English Past, Present and Future (English: history, diversity and change; Using English: from conversation to canon; Learning English: development and diversity; Redesigning English: new text, new identities) - B
Creative Writing (fiction; life writing; poetry; going to market) - A
The Art of English (Everyday Creativity;; The art of common talk; Describing Language; Exploring the language of poems, plays and prose; Literary Creativity) - B
Advanced Creative Writing (Ways of Writing; Playing with genre; Writing Drama; Developing Style; Voices in fiction; Rhetoric and Style; Using analogy; Poetry; Time and timing; Theme and sequence) - A

All of that, plus a couple of less relevant courses in year 1 and a dissertation in year 3, to get an award of upper 2nd class honours (missing a first by 5%)*. I don't recall ever walking out of a class or thinking I knew more or better than to listen and work. That's not to say I hung on every word - I felt (and indeed, was given) the freedom to take or ignore advice on style, etc, as I chose - but I listened, considered, and used about 90% of it, even though I'd had a couple of stories appear in print (in decent freebie mags or anthologies) by then, so it's a mistake to imagine I was one of the 'Badges' types.
What I am is a little way along the road from where you are now. I also have editorial experience from both sides of the fence. So, anything I write here is intended as advice to help you along the way, based on things I've learnt (the easy or the hard way), and I bother because, in some ways, you remind me of how I was in...oh, my late teens or early 20s, with regard to writing and the World of Literature in general and you clearly want to improve.
But as with all advice, you're free to take what you need or find most useful or leave it where it lies.


*Not to show off or anything. I'm acutely aware that others have much, much more than I. Firsts, for a start.
 

Mr Nobody

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I'll add, too, that the formal study of creative writing probably had as much of a negative effect as positive. Just as a sports person can have some or all of their natural talent coached out of them, so I found that the act of writing and/or generating ideas was no longer as easy as it had been. I knew more from a technical POV, but some of my natural style disappeared (and with it, most of my sense of pacing and some of meaning-making, both of which had been praised by the course leaders (tutors, if you have to, though they never called themselves such)). So, formal study isn't all moonlight and roses.
(There also comes a point where every master turns to the apprentice and says "That's it. I have nothing left to teach you". It doesn't mean the apprentice is now a master, just that s/he's no longer an apprentice. Time and doing the work does the rest...maybe. The former apprentices will all be very proficient, if they had the ability to go the course in the first place, but very, very few will go on to become masters in their turn.)

But, further to the discussion: SK's been mentioned a couple of times. As Kurben's pointed out, he's just one man with his own thoughts and opinions. That has to be remembered and accepted, but, since the man himself is extremely unlikely to even read this thread, much less announce his ID to us by taking an active part, I'll quote a few passages from Danse Macabre that appear to be somewhat relevant.

"There always has been a tendency to see the popular stories of yesterday as social documents, moral tracts, history lessons, or the precursors of more interesting fictions which follow...as anything, in fact, but novels standing on their own feet, each with its own tale to tell."

"...no novel survives solely on the strength of an idea - nor on its diction or execution, as so many writers and critics of modern literature seem sincerely to believe...these salesmen and saleswomen of beautiful cars with no motors."

"What the would-be writer of 'serious' fiction (who would relegate plot and story to a place at the end of a long line headed by diction and that smooth flow of language which most college writing instructors mistakenly equate with style) seems to forget is that novels are engines, just as cars are engines; a Rolls-Royce without an engine might as well be the world's most luxurious begonia pot, and a novel in which there is no story becomes nothing but a curiosity, a little mental game."
(pp.98-99, Hodder (UK) version)

Danse Macabre was first published in 1981 (according to the copyrights notices; in the UK it didn't appear in a domestic version until 1991). There's other stuff in there (writers aren't born, anyone can become good with time and practice, etc), but he went back on a lot of that in On Writing - and we've already had a discussion on these boards where I've made my own position clear re: talent and hard work. (SK also appears to contradict himself a little in DM, but he was a younger man then and he was already being ridden by his demons - age (and sobriety) sharpened his insights, but whichever version rings truest on a personal level, he's been generous enough to share them with us at whatever stage.
 
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