I've read through this thread several times now, and I'm still not entirely sure what point Donald is trying to make (other than plugging his group).
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I think Donald was trying to find like-minded people, people with an interest in becoming better at writing. This thread in particular is an offshoot of that endeavor, of his desire to become a better writer/reader...in that this thread looks at that desire to become a better writer...as students of any creative writing course taught by King likely desired...unless they thought it was an easy 3-credits and all they did was take up space. Apparently none of King's students became successful writers, or if they did, that question asked in the first post has not been addressed as such. Donald desired to communicate with others who desired to improve their writing. I think he was asking that, wasn't he...about King's students? I didn't realize King also taught creative writing. I believe Donald believes that one can hone one's skill at writing, just as I have improved my carpentry skills over the years. Lot of people can slap together a cabinet out of four slabs of wood...but only a craftsman can coax a work-of-art from the wood, but that same craftsman at one time left a lot of pecker tracks in the grain...and I think that analogy is what Donald is applying to the craft of writing. I offered the suggestion that Koontz's life and writing is proof of that.
The other posts in this thread related to the desire to write better are testimony to the fact that the desire Donald possesses is real and that it is shared by others. I don't believe the man deserved the harshness of the criticism leveled against him. I've witnessed far worse behavior that was never openly called onto the carpet.
I agree that some of the criticism might have been a little harsh, but there is more than a hint of literary snobbery in some of his posts. It's also rather disingenuous to criticise fellow writers for trying to get their work published, or for having ambition beyond educating themselves.
I have no idea if Donald is a published author, but there does seem to be a bitterness about his posts.
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I didn't see, or read, criticism of fellow writers for trying to get published as much as criticism for those who join groups with that sole intent. As I understand it and I admire the attempt, Donald is/was trying to organize like-minded people who desire to write and to write better, to rub shoulders with each other, to sharpen one another as iron sharpens iron. In the group pages I witnessed one who joined whose first posts were about getting published. The interest is/was in finding those whose goal was simply to write and to do it better. To improve. I think there exists the ability to publish there on the pages (for Donald...as a blog? dunno) ...seems funny now...talking about another who is not present. I'm a part of the group and the pages Donald has...started...and I think it will be good...have read The Necklace from Guy de Maupassant and am/have writing/written an essay on the story though it needs polish...nothing too high-brow...but the task did get me to think deeper about the story and I like what the story says about imagination. Perhaps that criticism of which you speak is there, but it did not rise to the surface and define itself to me as such.
Here's where it goes back to talent. You could give me a forest's worth of wood, teach me, and let me practice until the heat death of the universe. All you'd ever see is a basic box and occasional, very clumsy attempts at craftwork, because my talents, abilities, 'vision'...whatever you want to call it...don't run in that direction so I don't waste my time in trying (though I have tried in the past and been made to feel pretty damn useless, believe me).
I can (and do), however, admire the work of those who are able to become good craftsmen. And the greats, the ones that even the good craftsmen regard with awe...again, I'd say it's a heap of innate talent allied to a strong work ethic. One or t'other alone will never be enough.
As for writing...there's no harm in being just a good reader. There are plenty of professional critics who're bad writers, but good readers.
Dave? Dave! Is that you? Man, I'm sorry about giving you all that grief about the chalk-line and the tin snips. I hated it when you booked, but I imagine you're making a good life for yourself. I had such high hopes, too...thought you were a real contender.
No...seriously...who reads? It's all movies, television. Politics. Big money. Prince Fielder is posing nude. Who'd-a-thunk-it? Been several posts about screenplays and I've no clue...I admire a good movie, the work that went into it...but there it is more than one individual. We have your woman, Outlander. Where'd that come from! Considering the questions we've discussed...trying to look at it all from another angle. There's so many. There are questions about...what does a story do? What is the intent? Enlighten and baffle? Delight and instruct? Give Barney something to do on Rainy Tuesdays? So much is subjective. Who gets to define talent? Good stories? Bad stories? Is the best seller list the definition of talent? Or does only time define talent?
Here's a good article on "Good Writing Vs. Talented Writing" that articulates what a lot of people are trying to say.
Good Writing vs. Talented Writing | Brain Pickings
The question about improving your writing seems to have been lost somewhere along the way, or maybe I missed something in my skimming. I dabbled in writing back in university and got a couple of poems published. I put it aside for a long time, until I read On Writing and subsequently, a book put out by the Horror Writers' Association called On Writing Horror. Inside, I found the name of an acquaintance from high school who is now an author and publisher. That thrilled me and made me want to write and publish more. In the last four or five years, I have been working on honing my craft. I've published a dozen short stories but have yet to make any money. That's not exactly true: I just got my first royalty payment. For $3.11.
Writing is a process and everyone's writing can improve with study and finding like-minded people. As Mr. King says, the only way to get better is to read a lot and write a lot, every day.
Aside from that, sharing your work with others and getting real critical feedback is helpful. I've been a part of Critique Circle and a couple of casual writing groups, and I have Facebook (imaginary) friends who are all writers and we trade beta reading back and forth. I also run a couple of Facebook groups devoted to market listings, so people have somewhere to send their stuff when it's polished and ready to go.
Ultimately, what helped me most as a writer was volunteering as a slush reader for a few different publications. If you're a writer and you want to improve, I can't urge you strongly enough to be part of the editing process. You learn very quickly what makes a good story, what editors prefer, and (this sounds mean but it's true) just how many people submit writing that's very much NOT ready for publication. You start to feel better about your own work after a while, and that faith and confidence are helpful.
Last but not least, I was lucky enough to be part of the Horror Writers' Association Mentorship program, where they match you with a published author who can look over your work and give you tips about your writing. I had a wonderful mentor who helped me be critical about my writing and helped boost my confidence to start submitting to paying markets. No sales yet, but keep your fingers crossed for me (I have a story out now to a paying market but it's been two months and no joy. I'm on tenterhooks!)
Learning to write is, I'll reiterate, a long process. It's a journey, not a destination, and there is NO "This is point A and publication is point B." If there were, we'd all be writers.
Good Writing vs. Talented Writing | Brain Pickings
The question about improving your writing seems to have been lost somewhere along the way, or maybe I missed something in my skimming. I dabbled in writing back in university and got a couple of poems published. I put it aside for a long time, until I read On Writing and subsequently, a book put out by the Horror Writers' Association called On Writing Horror. Inside, I found the name of an acquaintance from high school who is now an author and publisher. That thrilled me and made me want to write and publish more. In the last four or five years, I have been working on honing my craft. I've published a dozen short stories but have yet to make any money. That's not exactly true: I just got my first royalty payment. For $3.11.
Writing is a process and everyone's writing can improve with study and finding like-minded people. As Mr. King says, the only way to get better is to read a lot and write a lot, every day.
Aside from that, sharing your work with others and getting real critical feedback is helpful. I've been a part of Critique Circle and a couple of casual writing groups, and I have Facebook (imaginary) friends who are all writers and we trade beta reading back and forth. I also run a couple of Facebook groups devoted to market listings, so people have somewhere to send their stuff when it's polished and ready to go.
Ultimately, what helped me most as a writer was volunteering as a slush reader for a few different publications. If you're a writer and you want to improve, I can't urge you strongly enough to be part of the editing process. You learn very quickly what makes a good story, what editors prefer, and (this sounds mean but it's true) just how many people submit writing that's very much NOT ready for publication. You start to feel better about your own work after a while, and that faith and confidence are helpful.
Last but not least, I was lucky enough to be part of the Horror Writers' Association Mentorship program, where they match you with a published author who can look over your work and give you tips about your writing. I had a wonderful mentor who helped me be critical about my writing and helped boost my confidence to start submitting to paying markets. No sales yet, but keep your fingers crossed for me (I have a story out now to a paying market but it's been two months and no joy. I'm on tenterhooks!)
Learning to write is, I'll reiterate, a long process. It's a journey, not a destination, and there is NO "This is point A and publication is point B." If there were, we'd all be writers.
Well, what have you been doing lately? I made the group out of frustration. I WORKED at making something everyone can benefit from. MOSTLY to prevent folks who only have negative things to say about other people, like you just did me. You don't have to have anything to do with me, and from what you've said so far, I would appreciate it very much if you didn't.
The moderator who was on duty last night pitched a post I made because I placed the link to the group on it. I wasn't planning on coming back here. But I discovered that Becki (Vulture) is someone who signed on, as did Walther. So there is a reason to come here and talk to people.
My group is an anti-WRITER'S GROUP. The same types fill those groups and chase the real students away. The ready-to-get-published-insufferable-geniuses are people I want to avoid. They are the killers of hope. They are to me what the Sisters were to Andy. Yet, thankfully, sometimes with a lot of resolve, "hope springs eternal."
My group is an anti-WRITER'S GROUP. The same types fill those groups and chase the real students away. The ready-to-get-published-insufferable-geniuses are people I want to avoid. They are the killers of hope. They are to me what the Sisters were to Andy. Yet, thankfully, sometimes with a lot of resolve, "hope springs eternal."
"Writing is a process and everyone's writing can improve with study and finding like-minded people." I think that's very true. Also think that "Money is the root of all evil." has some merit to it. People sometimes, often actually, sell their lives for a handful of dimes. What do they have to show for it? It seems to me that a certain amount of life is working toward that moment when one takes one's final breath before everlasting oblivion and realizes that they did make sme accomplishments when they had the chance in life.Here's a good article on "Good Writing Vs. Talented Writing" that articulates what a lot of people are trying to say.
Good Writing vs. Talented Writing | Brain Pickings
The question about improving your writing seems to have been lost somewhere along the way, or maybe I missed something in my skimming. I dabbled in writing back in university and got a couple of poems published. I put it aside for a long time, until I read On Writing and subsequently, a book put out by the Horror Writers' Association called On Writing Horror. Inside, I found the name of an acquaintance from high school who is now an author and publisher. That thrilled me and made me want to write and publish more. In the last four or five years, I have been working on honing my craft. I've published a dozen short stories but have yet to make any money. That's not exactly true: I just got my first royalty payment. For $3.11.
Writing is a process and everyone's writing can improve with study and finding like-minded people. As Mr. King says, the only way to get better is to read a lot and write a lot, every day.
Aside from that, sharing your work with others and getting real critical feedback is helpful. I've been a part of Critique Circle and a couple of casual writing groups, and I have Facebook (imaginary) friends who are all writers and we trade beta reading back and forth. I also run a couple of Facebook groups devoted to market listings, so people have somewhere to send their stuff when it's polished and ready to go.
Ultimately, what helped me most as a writer was volunteering as a slush reader for a few different publications. If you're a writer and you want to improve, I can't urge you strongly enough to be part of the editing process. You learn very quickly what makes a good story, what editors prefer, and (this sounds mean but it's true) just how many people submit writing that's very much NOT ready for publication. You start to feel better about your own work after a while, and that faith and confidence are helpful.
Last but not least, I was lucky enough to be part of the Horror Writers' Association Mentorship program, where they match you with a published author who can look over your work and give you tips about your writing. I had a wonderful mentor who helped me be critical about my writing and helped boost my confidence to start submitting to paying markets. No sales yet, but keep your fingers crossed for me (I have a story out now to a paying market but it's been two months and no joy. I'm on tenterhooks!)
Learning to write is, I'll reiterate, a long process. It's a journey, not a destination, and there is NO "This is point A and publication is point B." If there were, we'd all be writers.
"Your vision . . . don't run in that direction" . . . "though I have tried in the past and been made to feel pretty damn useless, believe me" That's why I aim at having a place for students to go to where they won't be made to feel like that buy [fill in the blank]. I loathe the people who think they are such hot stuff and KNOW they aren't. The only way they have of lashing out is to hurt other people. "Writer's groups" are filled with these types. I don't want to have anything to do with them.
Stephen King wrote an excellent story about hope. It's called "Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption." Andy is one of the great characters in literature and film. That's why the film is held in such high esteem. It is truly a great story.
I fear the moderator is going to think I'm sounding like a broken record. But we are on the site of someone who wrote an excellent story that was turned into a great masterpiece and one of the best movies of all time. There's good reasons why Shawshank Redemption will survive the test of time. Andy represents the resilience of the human heart and soul, those things that we all wish we have in us. Sometime, probably often, we do but we don't reach for it. The story is a reminder that we can try. That we can have hope in a merciless world filled with hateful people (in the movie the Sisters, who rape Andy). THAT's what "real" literature is, IMO.
Your whole post was the most helpful in the thread but this seems the best of the lot for practical advice. What I like to do is to buy some of the self published horror on Kindle and critique it for them in my own rough way. I'm paying for the opportunity to assist and encourage them and they are hungry for the feedback. They rarely charge much and sometimes you find a very rough diamond. The grammar is often atrocious but there are times when you read one that has the stamp of a good writer- you want to know what comes next and don't want to put the story aside until you find out. We both get something out of those and what better encouragement can a beginning writer get than some pocket change?
Your hypocrisy is breathtaking.
You've joined this message board with the sole intention of promoting yourself and your group, and have had almost nothing positive to say about anyone - particularly aspiring writers.
Berating the people you're trying to spam isn't the greatest marketing ploy I've ever seen.
Here's a good article on "Good Writing Vs. Talented Writing" that articulates what a lot of people are trying to say.
Good Writing vs. Talented Writing | Brain Pickings
The question about improving your writing seems to have been lost somewhere along the way, or maybe I missed something in my skimming. I dabbled in writing back in university and got a couple of poems published. I put it aside for a long time, until I read On Writing and subsequently, a book put out by the Horror Writers' Association called On Writing Horror. Inside, I found the name of an acquaintance from high school who is now an author and publisher. That thrilled me and made me want to write and publish more. In the last four or five years, I have been working on honing my craft. I've published a dozen short stories but have yet to make any money. That's not exactly true: I just got my first royalty payment. For $3.11.
Writing is a process and everyone's writing can improve with study and finding like-minded people. As Mr. King says, the only way to get better is to read a lot and write a lot, every day.
Aside from that, sharing your work with others and getting real critical feedback is helpful. I've been a part of Critique Circle and a couple of casual writing groups, and I have Facebook (imaginary) friends who are all writers and we trade beta reading back and forth. I also run a couple of Facebook groups devoted to market listings, so people have somewhere to send their stuff when it's polished and ready to go.
Ultimately, what helped me most as a writer was volunteering as a slush reader for a few different publications. If you're a writer and you want to improve, I can't urge you strongly enough to be part of the editing process. You learn very quickly what makes a good story, what editors prefer, and (this sounds mean but it's true) just how many people submit writing that's very much NOT ready for publication. You start to feel better about your own work after a while, and that faith and confidence are helpful.
Last but not least, I was lucky enough to be part of the Horror Writers' Association Mentorship program, where they match you with a published author who can look over your work and give you tips about your writing. I had a wonderful mentor who helped me be critical about my writing and helped boost my confidence to start submitting to paying markets. No sales yet, but keep your fingers crossed for me (I have a story out now to a paying market but it's been two months and no joy. I'm on tenterhooks!)
Learning to write is, I'll reiterate, a long process. It's a journey, not a destination, and there is NO "This is point A and publication is point B." If there were, we'd all be writers.
Excellent post! It was my experience, as well, that being involved in a critique group (and later as a jackleg editor) improved my own writing immensely. Open-mindedness to the editing process is essential, too. If an honest critique wounds your soul, you're in the wrong business. People, from the most educated editor to the reader-on-the-street, are going to have something to say about what you write, and a lot of it will be blunt. Some of it can be dismissed ("I don't like books where people die" levered at a horror writer, for example), but quite a lot of criticism, even stuff that's painful to hear, can be used to improve one's writing. I know Mr. King said something about killing one's darlings, but the thought didn't originate with him. The ultimate goal of a writer is to communicate with the reader, and quite often that means being ruthless with the thing you love. A critique group that is well conceived can help one step outside that writing bubble and recognize where one's writing is unclear or uncommunicative. Things that work within your mind may not work on paper--that's reality. It is also important to recognize that because a particular style doesn't work for you (as reader or as writer), it is not necessarily bad writing. A writer writing only for him or herself can become self-indulgent of their own idiosyncrasies--they roil in their own word stew and declare it the best thing on any menu. As editor or critique group doesn't allow that. The writer who realizes that, whether writing professionally or not, is ahead of the game.
Like any other skill, honing your tools (the basics--grammar, spelling, punctuation, pacing, etc) can make anyone a workable writer. Competent. And many times that's enough, either for them personally or for a reading audience (I believe it was Robert Benchley who said, "It took me fifteen years to discover that I had no talent for writing, but I couldn't give it up because by that time I was too famous."). As noted, there are plenty of workable books out there. By the same token, it would be foolish to assume there aren't more than a few genius writers who are undiscovered. The spark of true talent, though… I don't think you can learn that. Rowling's sentence and paragraph construction is often clunky, some of her dialogue is rough, but damn if she can't tell a story! Talent shines through writing that isn't textbook clean.
I invite you to read my story, "The Conversion." It is a tragic/comic story about a career criminal who meets an elderly woman, down on her luck. Their friendship leads to a life-altering change in the man's outlook, with a wicked twist at the end.
The Creative Writing Study Group is for people, like me, who know that they need to learn more and that having a friendly and encouraging environment is the best for that to happen. The Conversion is a story I wrote which is connected to writing challenges the members take on.
The Conversion | Creative Writing Study Group
The Creative Writing Study Group is for people, like me, who know that they need to learn more and that having a friendly and encouraging environment is the best for that to happen. The Conversion is a story I wrote which is connected to writing challenges the members take on.
The Conversion | Creative Writing Study Group
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