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Rrty

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Jun 4, 2007
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I read through most, but not all, of the thread, so I hope this hasn't already been brought up.

From the thread's title, I thought the discussion might go a little differently. Therefore, here is what puzzles me:

While I agree that competence is important, I think the more important issue is, how does one really get published? It seems as if the big thing most people push on this subject is how to write well. However, I tend to suspect that, even if one does end up writing a great book, that it is no guarantee that it will be published. Because of this, I think it is more vital to know how to write a good query letter, how to network, how to self-publish, what ads to place, etc.

I myself tend to focus on screenwriting, and I get the same thing from everyone: pay to have your script reviewed, put the changes in, etc. I have paid to have my stuff reviewed, but mostly for entertainment. In the end, if I cannot get an agent to look at a script based on a query letter, it doesn't matter how perfect it is (and in the case of screenplays, the work's execution really doesn't matter; as I have been told by actual screenwriters, it is the concept that is king). What I really need help on is the query letter...
 

Donald Miller

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2014
86
341
Sarasota
I read through most, but not all, of the thread, so I hope this hasn't already been brought up.

From the thread's title, I thought the discussion might go a little differently. Therefore, here is what puzzles me:

While I agree that competence is important, I think the more important issue is, how does one really get published? It seems as if the big thing most people push on this subject is how to write well. However, I tend to suspect that, even if one does end up writing a great book, that it is no guarantee that it will be published. Because of this, I think it is more vital to know how to write a good query letter, how to network, how to self-publish, what ads to place, etc.

I myself tend to focus on screenwriting, and I get the same thing from everyone: pay to have your script reviewed, put the changes in, etc. I have paid to have my stuff reviewed, but mostly for entertainment. In the end, if I cannot get an agent to look at a script based on a query letter, it doesn't matter how perfect it is (and in the case of screenplays, the work's execution really doesn't matter; as I have been told by actual screenwriters, it is the concept that is king). What I really need help on is the query letter...
I think the order you mention is in reverse. My preference is to write something with competence, and worry about getting published later. But I can be published at any time I want. I have a website.
I have a writer's group that I'm trying to get off the ground. I doubt I'll ever have more than a half dozen active members, if I'm lucky. The reason for this is as I was complaining about: that everyone wants to "get published." I want to learn to write. I have some good ideas. If nothing else, I can build up a body of readable work. I could fantasize about having a story or two of mine become movies, but it's a bit early for that, seeing as I haven't even written them out. I know what's going to happen. It's the telling of it.
Here's the link to my group. I hope the group's network, which I made myself, shows that I put my money where my mouth is. It's a good set of resources, well-organized and attractive looking. Now, if I could just find some people humble enough to want to learn how to write.
Creative Writing Study Group
 
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Scratch

In the flesh.
Sep 1, 2014
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I read through most, but not all, of the thread, so I hope this hasn't already been brought up.

While I agree that competence is important, I think the more important issue is, how does one really get published? It seems as if the big thing most people push on this subject is how to write well. However, I tend to suspect that, even if one does end up writing a great book, that it is no guarantee that it will be published. Because of this, I think it is more vital to know how to write a good query letter, how to network, how to self-publish, what ads to place, etc.

I see you subscribe to the John Kennedy Toole school of thought. He never thought Confederacy of Dunces would get published. He killed himself and it got published anyway. If something is great people will champion it. If something is competent then you will have to work like hell and it still might not. The world is full of competence. On the other hand it's also full of incompetence as mr. Toole observed.

I can't help you on the query letter. Fake sincerity maybe? I think what mr. King says is right. Don't do it for the money. The story is what's important. Enjoy the process. It's like going on a date, don't go trying to get laid because that's a sure sign you wont. Go to have a good time and enjoy the experience. You win either way that way. Be interested in life and people instead of success and it might work to your favor. I'm not a writer and know Jack all about it so take that with as much salt as you wish. I will say I find it amusing you couldn't read one full page of this thread but want an agent to read your work. That particular shovel tastes irony to me.
 

50's Kid

Well-Known Member
Aug 12, 2014
291
1,110
Detroit
I read through most, but not all, of the thread, so I hope this hasn't already been brought up.



From the thread's title, I thought the discussion might go a little differently. Therefore, here is what puzzles me:



While I agree that competence is important, I think the more important issue is, how does one really get published? It seems as if the big thing most people push on this subject is how to write well. However, I tend to suspect that, even if one does end up writing a great book, that it is no guarantee that it will be published. Because of this, I think it is more vital to know how to write a good query letter, how to network, how to self-publish, what ads to place, etc.



I myself tend to focus on screenwriting, and I get the same thing from everyone: pay to have your script reviewed, put the changes in, etc. I have paid to have my stuff reviewed, but mostly for entertainment. In the end, if I cannot get an agent to look at a script based on a query letter, it doesn't matter how perfect it is (and in the case of screenplays, the work's execution really doesn't matter; as I have been told by actual screenwriters, it is the concept that is king). What I really need help on is the query letter...



The book that I recommend to everyone who wants to do screenwriting is: “Screenwriting Tricks of the Trade”, by William Froug. If you haven’t read it, it would be very helpful to do so, whatever your current skill level may be.

Screenwriting Tricks of the Trade: William Froug: 9781879505131: Amazon.com: Books



Never, ever pay someone to “touch up” your work, or read it. A reputable agent (or manager) will never do that. They will take the time to look at the script or manuscript, maybe only “the first ten pages”, if they are interested, but they will never charge you. If they try, it is a scam, and you should run far away.

Since most of writing is rewriting, you should do any “improvements” yourself. I do not mean to ignore advice or criticism, but you should do the actual mechanical work yourself. This way, you will dig right in and get to know the story and characters better, and new plot and character twists will occur to you, as you proceed. I normally re-read and simultaneously rewrite a script about 50 times, changing a little less each time, until no other changes suggest themselves to me. At that point, I consider the script finished; “put to bed”, as they say in the newspaper trade. Then, I will often think of a change later, and incorporate it.



I can send a copy of my latest query letter, through the “Personal Conversation” route, if you think it will help you to formulate your own version.

However, bear in mind that I have been trying to get an agent, or anyone else in the movie or publishing industries, to just look at one of my screenplays (6 finished, a 7th in progress, and several other concepts in waiting), and I have been trying this since 2000. :hammer:;;D

I have tried everything I can think of, including calling and/or writing query letters to agents, managers, actors, producers, directors, movie production companies, and anyone I can think of who might be able to get a reading set up for me. The responses have been "don't bother us, we're way too busy", “we only take on already established writers”, or being ignored completely. I have recently decided to novelize one of the scripts and self-publish it in that format, to try to get some one to recognize that it is a good story. Then, I can either offer it as a screenplay or a novel. My financial approach to such a sale will be different than the standard deal, but I will not bring that complication up until someone is interested enough for negotiations to begin.



In the meantime, I refuse to give up, because I truly feel my work is good. I get something out of reading what I wrote (a strange feeling, when that happens), and others (friends and co-workers) who have read my scripts also give me positive feedback (and some constructive criticism, when necessary, which I take to heart).



I feel I have been lucky to have been born with some creative and organizational talent.

But, I strongly object to the idea that writers, or any other creative people, are either really good, or really bad. That elitist philosophy just rubs me the wrong way.

If someone writes something, or plays a song, which gives enjoyment and escape from life’s day to day drudgery, then more power to them. Personally, I found Hemingway to be excruciatingly boring, so I don’t try to read him. I am sure that some others would find the authors I enjoy reading equally boring. It is like music. My tastes might make others run from the room, and vice versa.



Thomas Edison said, “Genius is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration.”

Thomas Edison - Wikiquote

And, there is this quote from Calvin Coolidge:

“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race”

Calvin Coolidge quotes



I guess what I am trying to say is that if you think you can write, then keep working at it, regardless of what others may say to try to discourage you. Eventually you may develop the skills needed to turn one of your ideas into a good story. Or, you may not, but at least give it a good try.



Sometimes, you just have to ignore the roadblocks life puts in your path and keep pushing forward. Don’t let the many critics of the world grind you down.:stupid:
Most of them are either afraid to try to achieve their own dreams, or wouldn’t know a dream if it bit them in the rear.:umm:



 

50's Kid

Well-Known Member
Aug 12, 2014
291
1,110
Detroit
Writing is an art, but it is also a business. Financial success will give you the freedom to write more and with more freedom, as in exploring more controversial subjects and getting them out there for a larger public to see. Tom Clancy said that becoming successful allowed him to "escape the middle class trap". There is no shame in supporting yourself doing what you love.:cool2:

Shia LaBeouf regrets Spielberg dig, quits blockbusters | Den of Geek
 

Walter Oobleck

keeps coming back...or going, and going, and going
Mar 6, 2013
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I believe King also wrote treasure the bad. I, too, think that elitist philosophy is stinkin thinkin and one need not look long or far to read a review that is nothing more than a personal harangue against an individual, not the story. Seems silly to suggest that one cannot be taught what a good story is. We know it when we read it. And we look for more from same. At the same time, we know wrong when we read it. It's like tasting milk gone bad everything locks up our face expresses displeasure and we'd like to become like God, him he hurled headlong, but we're reminded of the last Sheetrock repair bill so we log onto a website instead and incite a riot. If one can be taught to write a simple sentence, and one can...unless one is American where the one thing one is willing to pay for...and hope he does not get...is an education...then one has the tools required to begin. One is taught sentences by writing bad sentences and being corrected. The mark of a good carpenter is not that he does not make mistakes...it is how he covers them, or changes them, or throws up his hands and says I can't see it from my house.
 

Walter Oobleck

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There's a line in Lisey's Story...Scott stood at the stove frying bacon in his underpants. Paraphrased, but that if the gist of it. Talent? Or a mistake that slipped past the editors? How many stories have you read where the budding novelist included a thank you list of thirty or more names? Talent? Or connections? How many forewords or afterwords have you read from King that described the editorial process large and small? See previous. Talent? Or assistance? Talent? Or instruction?
How many stories have you read where the writer described in a foreword...or maybe you heard/read the news elsewhere...that the story was rejected ninety-nine times before Ace picked it up and ran with it? Talent? Or just dumb luck? Maybe it was the bumper sticker on the car? Previous owner, who voted the other party. We are not often privy to the many changes a story evolves through...King mentions readers...after whatever draft you've got on hand, mentions readers of his stories before they head out the door, and I know he has mentioned changes readers suggested, some from his wife, some from his sons. Talent? Or God blessed him with a beautiful wife and a wonderful family? In the end we'd have nothing if King hadn't sat his ass down in front of his machine and worked, day in day out. So my suggestion is that once you got the manuscript you drive past the publishers and throw it through their window, SASE attached, to anonymous...not only do you get their attention, but with all the broke winders I'm likely to get more work...the big guys replace the big windows allowing me to do the small ones.
 

Flat Matt

Deleted User
Apr 16, 2014
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If he said that, he didn't say it in "On Writing." What he said was that he once believed that a bad writer could become a good writer. He changed his mind about that. He did, however, say that a competent writer can become a good writer. He also believes that someone who is one of the few "great writers" were probably born with it.

You're right, I'm not sure he said that you can't teach creative writing in "On Writing." I heard him say it during an interview, I think.
 

FlakeNoir

Original Kiwi© SKMB®
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Apr 11, 2006
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"I do see things differently than most . . .one of my short-comings." Would it seem like I'm picking on you if I pointed out that that sentence is so vague that it has no discernable meaning? What I mean to say is that it proves my point about developing one's talent. I don't know you, but I know you can do better than that.
This is fairly insulting. There is no competition here, probably the majority of members on the MB are not trying to break into any writers market and are in fact happy being readers.
 

GNTLGNT

The idiot is IN
Jun 15, 2007
87,651
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Cambridge, Ohio
I'm shooting for competence, but I can't find any fellow students -- they're all great natural-born geniuses and have no need to study.
...and with arrogance like that, your class is sure to fill up *snap*, just like that...how pretentious of you to waltz in here and immediately begin to tout your "wisdom" while insulting the vast majority of the members. And to "talk down" to us?...how dare you???...treating Madam Mack and others with poorly concealed scorn, is the mark of a small mind and smaller heart...you haven't been here long enough to render an opinion on any of us, and even if you had-respectful disagreement or opinion is the hallmark of the SKMB...you sir, have worn out your welcome and need to find the exit forthwith....
 

Mr Nobody

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Jul 9, 2008
3,306
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Walsall, England
You need both talent and a work ethic. You can have all the talent in the world and it'll get you precisely nowhere if you don't put the hours in. Equally, you can have the best work ethic in the world, and you'll get nowhere if there isn't any, or at least enough, talent in you. (Though talent comes in many forms and guises.)
What you also have to bear in mind is that half of everything is luck.

As to what SK said, I believe it was along the lines of 'you can make a good writer out of a competent one, but you can't make a good, or even competent, writer out of a bad one or a great writer out of the good'. It's not 100% there but it's close enough.
Now, I'm not sure I entirely agree. I do in the broad strokes, but not in the fine details, because there are bad writers and 'bad' writers.
Some bad writers have no talent at all, and are best served by being encouraged to invest their energies elsewhere. There are others, though, who appear to be bad only because they lack practice or education. Reading a lot will help, though not everyone is encouraged to do this from a young age (or they may deem it 'uncool' in their youth, or simply not read because their peers don't and they want to fit in). For folks in this category, improvement can be made if they're willing to invest a lot of time and energy into learning and teasing out whatever underlying talent they may have. The majority, of course, will fall short. Others will become merely competent at best. But there might be the odd one or two who transcend their initial limitations and become good.
I agree, though, that the great writers are out on their own. The only debate to be had there is whether their work ethic is innate or a product of nurture. (And can a very good writer become great simply by working harder? Maybe, but I doubt it.)

Then there is the great contradiction of writing. You can't write solely for the money, or begin in expectation of earning it, yet "No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money".
 

Moderator

Ms. Mod
Administrator
Jul 10, 2006
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Stephen did teach English in high school for two years but he also did a stint later at the University of Maine teaching a creative writing class.

I would agree that you can teach and improve on innate skills but you can't learn from teaching the kind of talent that I was describing if you don't already have it.
 

Mr Nobody

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Jul 9, 2008
3,306
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Walsall, England
Stephen did teach English in high school for two years but he also did a stint later at the University of Maine teaching a creative writing class.

I would agree that you can teach and improve on innate skills but you can't learn from teaching the kind of talent that I was describing if you don't already have it.

I wasn't disagreeing. Quite the opposite, actually. I was just going 'round the houses in saying it. :smile2:
("Omit needless words". "Omit needless words". It'll sink in one day...)
 

Moderator

Ms. Mod
Administrator
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52,243
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I wasn't disagreeing. Quite the opposite, actually. I was just going 'round the houses in saying it. :smile2:
("Omit needless words". "Omit needless words". It'll sink in one day...)
Me either. You'd posted yours as I was typing mine so I hadn't even read it before I replied. I was doing it more as a general response to some of the earlier posts which is why I didn't use a quote so no problem at all. =D
 

Walter Oobleck

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Mar 6, 2013
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I do see things differently than most . . .one of my short-comings.

"I do see things differently than most . . .one of my short-comings." Would it seem like I'm picking on you if I pointed out that that sentence is so vague that it has no discernable meaning? What I mean to say is that it proves my point about developing one's talent. I don't know you, but I know you can do better than that.

This is fairly insulting. There is no competition here, probably the majority of members on the MB are not trying to break into any writers market and are in fact happy being readers.

...and with arrogance like that, your class is sure to fill up *snap*, just like that...how pretentious of you to waltz in here and immediately begin to tout your "wisdom" while insulting the vast majority of the members. And to "talk down" to us?...how dare you???...treating Madam Mack and others with poorly concealed scorn, is the mark of a small mind and smaller heart...you haven't been here long enough to render an opinion on any of us, and even if you had-respectful disagreement or opinion is the hallmark of the SKMB...you sir, have worn out your welcome and need to find the exit forthwith....

Cut the man some slack. I don't believe he meant to be disrespectful. I could read Donald's frustration in another post, read his desire to improve, his desire to learn and as the proverb says, as one iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. If you visited the linked pages Donald provided you would see that he has done quite a bit of work toward the goals he stated he wished to accomplish. It's unfortunate that some have taken that desire as something it is not. MadamMack's post does seem a tad self-effacing. She plays with a blue guitar...things sound different on a blue guitar.
 
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Mr Nobody

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2008
3,306
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Walsall, England
Me either. You'd posted yours as I was typing mine so I hadn't even read it before I replied. I was doing it more as a general response to some of the earlier posts which is why I didn't use a quote so no problem at all. =D

Ah! I suspected as much. It's why I sat looking at your post for a few minutes before hitting Reply, opting for clarity where none was required. :smile2:
 

GNTLGNT

The idiot is IN
Jun 15, 2007
87,651
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62
Cambridge, Ohio
Cut the man some slack. I don't believe he meant to be disrespectful. I could read Donald's frustration in another post, read his desire to improve, his desire to learn and as the proverb says, as one iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. If you visited the linked pages Donald provided you would see that he has done quite a bit of work toward the goals he stated he wished to accomplish. It's unfortunate that some have taken that desire as something it is not. MadamMack's post does seem a tad self-effacing. She plays with a blue guitar...things sound different on a blue guitar.
...wow, just....wow.....
 

FlakeNoir

Original Kiwi© SKMB®
Moderator
Apr 11, 2006
44,082
175,641
New Zealand
Cut the man some slack. I don't believe he meant to be disrespectful. I could read Donald's frustration in another post, read his desire to improve, his desire to learn and as the proverb says, as one iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. If you visited the linked pages Donald provided you would see that he has done quite a bit of work toward the goals he stated he wished to accomplish. It's unfortunate that some have taken that desire as something it is not. MadamMack's post does seem a tad self-effacing. She plays with a blue guitar...things sound different on a blue guitar.
I probably would have cut him some more slack had he even attempted to use this community for anything other than a gathering tool to aid his own site/s. He was unnecessarily rude and I called him on it, as is part of my job.
 

Rrty

Well-Known Member
Jun 4, 2007
1,394
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50's kid: yes, I would like to read an example of your query, thanks.

By the way, the paid-review thing I did was The Black List and one other service, mostly for entertainment like I said, but they were fairly cheap and, from what I have read by actual screenwriters, useful and a good bet (I'm sure you are familiar with The Black List site and its paid listing service, it's pretty legit from what I have heard, although I no longer list my scripts there as I received no notice from agents and producers). I think, in terms of screenwriting, some monetary investment is needed, not unlike self-publishing a book. I do, however, know what you mean. And for what it's worth, I have used Virtual Pitch Fest to buy pitches to producers/etc.: only one positive reply from a producer, who ended up never responding after many months. I am in the process, though, of ceasing investing in my screenwriting and going the self-publishing route.
 
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