I Didn't Really Like It

Discussion in 'IT' started by AGP, Apr 30, 2014.

  1. AGP
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    AGP Member

    I think that my "beef" makes 100% sense and, as previously stated it is not on whether they remember It itself, but the fact that they didn't remember each other. We will take your own advice and agree to disagree.
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  2. Robert Gray
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    Robert Gray Well-Known Member

    That is a given. However, going at the issue from a different angle, there is a precedence for this in the Lord of the Rings. Frodo, the Ringbearer, goes through hell and back. He saves the Shire (and Middle Earth), but not for himself. His wounds can never be healed. Going home will do nothing for him. While he does cross over the sea at the end, and hopefully to find some peace there, it will never be the home he knew or wanted. I don't think the epic tale of the Ring is somehow ruined by the fact that one of its chief heroes is robbed of his personal comforts and rewards. In the same way, I don't think the Losers are robbed either, nor the tale diminished. They did what they did because it was the right thing to do, just as Frodo did what he did because it was the right thing to do.

    To some degree, it is a question of happy endings. The Losers didn't return to Derry for friendship. They returned on the strength of a promise. They came back because it was the right thing to do. They came back (most of them anyway) even before they remembered each other fully. Even Stan the Man, who didn't come back, took a righteous action while still a boy. He knew, even back then, that It would return. He made them promise because he knew he would be weak. He didn't do that for the sake of friendship either. If friendship was factor he would have wanted them a thousand miles away forever.

    There are larger questions, and harder questions. While the Losers were never puppets, there was a force working to help them and seeking to remove It from the equation. This force had waited for a long time, and I suspect had worked/helped others before in an attempt to bring the nightmare to an end. We will never know for certain, but I have always harbored a suspicion about the Kitchner Iron Works Easter Egg Hunt. Some part of me whispers that there is another story buried there, another layer of the onion. Something tells me there was another group of children and perhaps even their teacher who tried to slay the dragon but they ended in failure. That is, of course, mere conjecture on my part. The issue is that the Other (the positive force) which helps the Losers is something vast and powerful. It is something that is innately good, but cosmic.

    The Other will not make slaves of the Losers, nor can it operate that way. It can, however, put things in their way. It can act subtle and behind the scenes to try and put the proper people on the path of the hero. It is then up to said people to stand and be true (or not). The darker, harder question is what exactly did the Other do to make sure that Big Bill, who was the heart of the Losers, was faced with the choice? What series of events put Big Bill's brother outside in the rain with his boat at just the right time and just the right place? Was that random chance? Was that orchestrated? Would Big Bill have been as stalwart if his little brother had not been killed? I am often troubled by this question because of the moment of hypnotic pause in the basement where a little boy stands transfixed by an image of a turtle. It was a short span but without a doubt that brief delay made certain the child would be at the right place and time to run afoul of Pennywise. The question is whether or not a cosmic force of good sacrifices little boys on the alter to achieve a greater good.
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  3. Chazel1972
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    Chazel1972 Well-Known Member

    "I am often troubled by this question because of the moment of hypnotic pause in the basement where a little boy stands transfixed by an image of a turtle. It was a short span but without a doubt that brief delay made certain the child would be at the right place and time to run afoul of Pennywise. The question is whether or not a cosmic force of good sacrifices little boys on the alter to achieve a greater good."

    Ease your mind Robert Gray. I think the brief pause was a girding up of power that made Georgie (all be it on his last day) gird up and brave the basement for the love of his big brother Bill.
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  4. AGP
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    AGP Member

    How's that a given when neither of us stops arguing pretty much the same points? I think that they were pawns. Either if they weren't, I think that it is unacceptable that this deity figure would deprive them of their memories and choices. That's obviously subjective, and you may like it all you want. But as long as we're asking questions, are Ben and Bev going to remember each other? If so, will they remember the others? Will there be a time, in a few days, when they're together and neither of them remember why? If so, how will they react to this (it's a little like Lois Lane not remembering having sex with Superman and yet knowing she had a child with him in Superman Returns, but in this case neither of them remember each other)?
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  5. Sundrop
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    Sundrop the Great & Wonderful

    I enjoyed IT.....it's in my top 5 favorite King stories. I have no problem with the story line of The Losers Club. The book for me, was a great ride and one of the best horror stories I've ever read.
    I think that sometimes, people tend to over analyze a work of fiction based upon their own terms of what reality should be. For me, that would ruin the story. I read fiction for the pure enjoyment of the tale, and for the thrill of the ride.....IT never disappointed me.
  6. FlakeNoir
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    FlakeNoir Beta/Moderator Moderator

    Me either, Sunny... those friendships and the love they wrought, well that was everything.
  7. Robert Gray
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    Robert Gray Well-Known Member

    We aren't arguing the same points. You stated you don't like the book. Most of us do like it. We agree to disagree. What we are talking about is your justification and arguments about why. Nobody can argue with you about a preference. You have, however, put forward specifics about why you didn't like it. That is what we are talking about. While there is nothing strange about a preference, your reasons for it can be sound or unsound. They can be logical or not. In short, you might still be talking about your not liking the book. I'm analyzing the arguments you make because that is the only salient points of interest.

    I find it fascinating that you can claim not to like a book that is over a thousand pages long when you read every page. When I don't like a book based either on the quality of said book or my own preferences, I tend to put it down within a single chapter. I think the furthest I've ever gotten into a book I didn't like was a little over a hundred pages. There are just too many good books to read and too little time to read them for me to dedicate hours to something I don't like. The fact that you plowed through a thousand pages, apparently not enjoying the book, is about the most interesting thing I've heard in days. You are either a glutton for punishment or have this rule or mental quirk that forces you to finish them once you start them.

    I know I'm being a bit tongue in cheek here, perhaps borderline sarcastic, but I am trying to make a point. Is it clear you are upset and somehow personally unsettled by their loss of memory? Yes. That event isn't really the story. It is falling action. It is an afterthought. It takes in the last few pages of a long tome. I have to believe that you you did enjoy the book or you wouldn't have reached that point. I believe you when you say you don't like that they forgot what happened to them. I'm not sure I trust you assertions about not liking the book, however, based on that argument. It seems a bit thin. It seems a very weird beef to have. Different strokes for different folks.
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  8. AGP
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    AGP Member

    You just keep rephrasing yourself. But for a direct answer to a point you had already expressed: I suppose I may have "quit" one or two books in my life, but I usually read them all the way through. Once I decide I'm curious about them, I'm curious all the way to the end. That's not to say I didn't like the experience of reading It. I like King's writing. But the end informs the rest of the story, and this end is, to me, unacceptable.
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  9. mjs9153
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    mjs9153 the Dude abides

    Ok AGP,I guess,we got it..you hate(or really dislike) the end,because they cannot remember each other through the years..perhaps,a saccharine sweet ending with everybody remembering everything and they will all remember each other to their deathbeds would have been better..and ben and bev will be sweethearts and bill and audra will love each other to the ends of the earth,forever and ever,amen..maybe they can
    glue Eddie's arm back on and resuscitate him too,and he will go back to nyc
    and put myra on a diet and it ends up that she really is a supermodel..sorry,life just ain't so easy and nice,and endings are never the way we want or aim for..in life or fiction..which is why I prefer SK,as he so closely parallels life in his character studies..perhaps,you might want to read Koontz novels instead..(not that there is anything wrong with that)..
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  10. Neesy
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    Neesy #1 fan (Annie Wilkes cousin) 1st cousin Mom's side

    As someone said in another thread Koontz is sort of a 'King Lite', like a light beer rather than the full alcohol beer :very_drunk:
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  11. AGP
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    AGP Member

    Yes, that's what I'm saying. This thread is about how I hate unhappy endings. Good call. But then, haven't a lot of the responses in defense of this ending been that it's for the best that they don't remember it?
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  12. Neesy
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    Neesy #1 fan (Annie Wilkes cousin) 1st cousin Mom's side

    Have you read Cujo? - there is an unhappy ending for sure!
    :cower: :dejection: :dog:
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  13. AGP
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    AGP Member

    Yes, I read Cujo in my teens. I liked it. Again, unhappy endings work when they work. It's ending does not.
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  14. Sundrop
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    Sundrop the Great & Wonderful

    Just because an ending doesn't work for you, doesn't mean that it doesn't work.....I personally feel that any other ending could not have worked.
    When you say the ending is unacceptable, it sounds like you're scolding a rebellious teenager for unruly behavior......or pouting because you're a spoiled teenager who didn't get his way......
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  15. Robert Gray
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    Robert Gray Well-Known Member

    I can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't say much about the ending besides analyzing your arguments. Do I think it is a mercy that they don't remember the event? Yes. Ben and Bev left together. I think, being a romantic at heart, that they will remain together. I think they will remember each other and together they will rationalize away their Derry past in a way that is acceptable and sanitized of Pennywise and all the events that surrounded him. It probably goes something like this:

    Beverly, fleeing an abusive marriage, decides to run back to her old hometown that she hadn't thought about in years. It make perfect sense that to flee her vile husband she would go back to the place where her father might still live. She is dealing with the demons of abuse. By crazy coincidence Ben is also visiting the old homestead too. As a world traveler, sometimes you just have to get back to your roots. He is looking at the old Children's Library, the inspiration of one of his greatest works. They remember meeting in Derry, that they knew each other a bit as kids, and in meeting as adults they make that meaningful connection.

    A little aside, no more than a paragraph, could be written for each of them. They return to their lives, the curse broken. Their memories of their childhood are indistinct, no better than anyone else looking back through almost thirty years to young childhood. They all probably remember (because the books tells us also) that they did once have great friends, but it is more a feeling than a set of facts. The ending doesn't need a defense. You brought up a subject, so some of us are willing to talk to you about it. I discuss your arguments because I consider the book wonderful and I wouldn't change anything. I admit that I too felt a sort of sadness at the return of their memory loss, but that price seems right to me.
  16. AGP
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    AGP Member

    "or pouting because you're a spoiled teenager who didn't get his way......"

    And yet, I'm not the one who just got personal because someone doesn't agree with me...

    "Beverly, fleeing an abusive marriage, decides to run back to her old hometown that she hadn't thought about in years. It make perfect sense that to flee her vile husband she would go back to the place where her father might still live. She is dealing with the demons of abuse. By crazy coincidence Ben is also visiting the old homestead too. As a world traveler, sometimes you just have to get back to your roots. He is looking at the old Children's Library, the inspiration of one of his greatest works. They remember meeting in Derry, that they knew each other a bit as kids, and in meeting as adults they make that meaningful connection."

    I hope so. I just saw the TV miniseries (which I remembered from 24 years ago as a movie) and, although I didn't love it, its ending is a little bit better. Mike forgets, but his diary doesn't get erased and he's able to read from it. Ben and Beverly get pregnant. And the words, "the curse is broken" are specifically spoken by Mike.
  17. Sundrop
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    Sundrop the Great & Wonderful

    My comment was not intended to be a personal one......I was simply making a comparison of observed behaviors.
    I don't know anything about you, so there is no way that I would make personal comments to or about you.
    Sorry you took that way :)
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  18. Riot87
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    Riot87 Goddess

    I know what your saying AGP believe that & i think the ending was sort of depressing but still i think it is a great story though.
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  19. EMTP513
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    EMTP513 Well-Known Member

    I didn't like the spider. I've never been able to finish reading the last scene in the book. I have arachnophobia from a spider incident in my past.
    I'll leave it at that. The explanation is a hair-raising one, and not one I like remembering.
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  20. Neesy
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    Neesy #1 fan (Annie Wilkes cousin) 1st cousin Mom's side

    [​IMG]

    I liked the book "It" - it is not my all time favourite and I do not fear clowns, probably because I read it only two years ago.

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