Group Discussion III: The Stand (40th Anniversary)

Wayoftheredpanda · Jan 8, 2019

To say The Stand is a somewhat modern incarnation of the Christian bible would be say the obvious, it’s not in your face but with Mother Abigail it’s quite obvious. Now, I’m not a religious person, and definitely not an expert on The Bible, but here’s what I noticed and my interpretations.

The obvious-

Randall Flagg- Satan
Mother Abigail- A prophet of God
Captain Trips- The 10 biblical plagues?/ The great flood in Noah’s Ark

Now, this might be another obvious one, but I’d like to point it out anyways. Harold Lauder is Pontius Pilate, as for he betrays the free zone just as Pilate betrayed Jesus. Also, the use of crucifixtion is another one of the more obvious Biblical allusions, but just to add to the point.

Nadine Cross is a somewhat reverse Mary figure, as she goes to birth the spawn of evil, before Randall appoints for her an untimely fate.

Also, not necessarily a biblical one, but could the Lincoln Tunnel that Larry travels through be an allusion to the river Styx from Greek Mythology?

Doc Creed · Jan 8, 2019

What do you think about Frannie's decision (or request) to return to Maine. Stu seemed fine with it. Keeping with that 'coming full circle' idea, it felt right. I was happy for them. The baby being named after Fran's father only added to the completion.

Blake · Jan 8, 2019

Coolallosaurus said:
Good evening, friends! It's an interesting question, and I think I am an outlier here, but I prefer It. I enjoyed the themes of The Stand, appreciate it's writing and plotting, but found It more engaging/interesting. I couldn't get invested in any of the characters in The Stand. I kind of hated everyone and was rooting for the cats.

I'm teaching this semester, and gave my students a choice of The Stand or It. Some might be interested to know that of a class, the majority of whom have never read King before, The Stand won by a landslide. I was struck by that; had expected It given the current resonance in pop culture.

That's interesting, I would have thought students would have picked IT seeing it just was recently a motion picture. Maybe they're over the clown thing in the media. Also, and I'm just surmising, but kids like graphic novels( or some teenagers do) and they might have read or come across the six-part The Stand graphic novel and liked it and therefore would rather read The Stand.

Coolallosaurus · Jan 8, 2019

Wayoftheredpanda said:
To say The Stand is a somewhat modern incarnation of the Christian bible would be say the obvious, it’s not in your face but with Mother Abigail it’s quite obvious. Now, I’m not a religious person, and definitely not an expert on The Bible, but here’s what I noticed and my interpretations.

The obvious-

Randall Flagg- Satan
Mother Abigail- A prophet of God
Captain Trips- The 10 biblical plagues?/ The great flood in Noah’s Ark

Now, this might be another obvious one, but I’d like to point it out anyways. Harold Lauder is Pontius Pilate, as for he betrays the free zone just as Pilate betrayed Jesus. Also, the use of crucifixtion is another one of the more obvious Biblical allusions, but just to add to the point.

Nadine Cross is a somewhat reverse Mary figure, as she goes to birth the spawn of evil, before Randall appoints for her an untimely fate.

Also, not necessarily a biblical one, but could the Lincoln Tunnel that Larry travels through be an allusion to the river Styx from Greek Mythology?

Could Nadine be a Lilth figure (i.e. Adam's first wife)?

Coolallosaurus · Jan 8, 2019

Blake said:
That's interesting, I would have thought students would have picked IT seeing it just was recently a motion picture. Maybe they're over the clown thing in the media. Also, and I'm just surmising, but kids like graphic novels( or some teenagers do) and they might have read or come across the six-part The Stand graphic novel and liked it and therefore would rather read The Stand.

Yes, we'll be reading excerpts from The Stand and The Dark Tower graph novels. Graphic novels are having a moment in literature classrooms (and for good reason), so that should be fun!

Wayoftheredpanda · Jan 8, 2019

Also, Frannie could be a more fitting Virgin Mary figure seeing how her child living is a “hope for humanity” kind of thing, seeing how the only other woman to give birth in the Free Zone before her’s children ended up dying.

Doc Creed · Jan 8, 2019

Coolallosaurus said:
Could Nadine be a Lilth figure (i.e. Adam's first wife)?

Lilith isn't in the Bible, but I take your point. Could be. There were many biblical allusions and King even calls it his "novel of dark Christianity", and I don't think he expected readers to take it quite so literally, but as Panda points out, the correlations are there.

Spideyman · Jan 8, 2019

Doc Creed said:
What do you think about Frannie's decision (or request) to return to Maine. Stu seemed fine with it. Keeping with that 'coming full circle' idea, it felt right. I was happy for them. The baby being named after Fran's father only added to the completion.

Maine was home to Frannie. Stu would easily follow her request. They were family. Full circle- love it!!

Coolallosaurus · Jan 8, 2019

Doc Creed said:
What do you think about Frannie's decision (or request) to return to Maine. Stu seemed fine with it. Keeping with that 'coming full circle' idea, it felt right. I was happy for them. The baby being named after Fran's father only added to the completion.

I enjoyed the ambiguity of that scene when Stu asks: "Do you think . . . do you think people ever learn anything?" and Frannie replies, "I don't know" I like that Maine isn't necessarily positioned as a haven, but a symbol of home and the old way of life.

Coolallosaurus · Jan 8, 2019

Doc Creed said:
Lilith isn't in the Bible, but I take your point. Could be. There were many biblical allusions and King even calls it his "novel of dark Christianity", and I don't think he expected readers to take it quite so literally, but as Panda points out, the correlations are there.

Oh, yup, missed the Christianity part. Just the references and assumed myth/folklore.

Doc Creed · Jan 8, 2019

Do you think Flagg knew his demise was near (when he went into the desert after Nadine killed herself) because he was nervous about Trashy's hijinks with the helicopters and about spies making it back to Boulder. Do you think he was completely surprised when Trashy showed up with the bomb? I am not sure. I think Flagg's arrogance prevented him from imagining just how wrong things could go.

Doc Creed · Jan 8, 2019

Coolallosaurus said:
I enjoyed the ambiguity of that scene when Stu asks: "Do you think . . . do you think people ever learn anything?" and Frannie replies, "I don't know" I like that Maine isn't necessarily positioned as a haven, but a symbol of home and the old way of life.

Yeah, I agree. Leaves readers with a little something to chew on and something to ponder.

Spideyman · Jan 8, 2019

Doc Creed said:
Do you think Flagg knew his demise was near (when he went into the desert after Nadine killed herself) because he was nervous about Trashy's hijinks with the helicopters and about spies making it back to Boulder. Do you think he was completely surprised when Trashy showed up with the bomb? I am not sure. I think Flagg's arrogance prevented him from imagining just how wrong things could go.

I think the fact that Tom escaped demonstrated that Flagg's power and influence were diminishing.

Coolallosaurus · Jan 8, 2019

Doc Creed said:
Do you think Flagg knew his demise was near (when he went into the desert after Nadine killed herself) because he was nervous about Trashy's hijinks with the helicopters and about spies making it back to Boulder. Do you think he was completely surprised when Trashy showed up with the bomb? I am not sure. I think Flagg's arrogance prevented him from imagining just how wrong things could go.

I am not sure, but I wonder if Trash was king of like Tom; unreadable? If so, maybe that mental impermeability gave Flagg a false sense of security that he was in control?

Doc Creed · Jan 8, 2019

It's hard to comprehend how Flagg didn't sense Dayna Jurgens was a spy. He had the power of sending out "The Eye" but perhaps his power was limited or it was a human limitation. It was Lloyd who discovered she was a spy, correct?

What do you guys think of Lloyd? He was a criminal and had a past but I didn't view him as evil. He cried when he shot Glen and I believe he had true remorse. Thoughts?

Wayoftheredpanda · Jan 8, 2019

Maybe another non-biblical allusion, but could Randall Flagg be somewhat inspired by Charles Manson? It’s a loose idea, but they both had darkly charismatic personalities that allowed them to gain followers to help carry out some dark motive. Manson also kind of saw himself as some kind of prophet of the apocalypse, which is essentially what RF is. Also adding to it are the buttons on RF’s denim jacket, especially the one with the pig on it, “Eat your Pork” I think the quote on it was, I say this because Manson had some ideology that The Beatles were the horseman of the apocalypse or something, and had his own crazy interpretations of some of the white album songs, namely Piggies, which I’m pretty sure was one of the ones that was quoted in the blood of the innocent victims he told his followers to murder. Helter Skelter was also published in the 70’s, and King probably read it.

Coolallosaurus · Jan 8, 2019

Doc Creed said:
It's hard to comprehend how Flagg didn't sense Dayna Jurgens was a spy. He had the power of sending out "The Eye" but perhaps his power was limited or it was a human limitation. It was Lloyd who discovered she was a spy, correct?

What do you guys think of Lloyd? He was a criminal and had a past but I didn't view him as evil. He cried when he shot Glen and I believe he had true remorse. Thoughts?

Lloyd seemed to suffer from misdirected loyalty and a desire for status. There's a part where Whitney et al. offer to take him along on their escape and he refuses, thinking through his lowered position outside of Flagg's circle.

Doc Creed · Jan 8, 2019

Coolallosaurus said:
I am not sure, but I wonder if Trash was king of like Tom; unreadable? If so, maybe that mental impermeability gave Flagg a false sense of security that he was in control?

Great point, and, like Spidey said, Flagg's powers (or his mental faculties) seemed to be weakening.

Coolallosaurus · Jan 8, 2019

Wayoftheredpanda said:
Maybe another non-biblical allusion, but could Randall Flagg be somewhat inspired by Charles Manson? It’s a loose idea, but they both had darkly charismatic personalities that allowed them to gain followers to help carry out some dark motive. Manson also kind of saw himself as some kind of prophet of the apocalypse, which is essentially what RF is. Also adding to it are the buttons on RF’s denim jacket, especially the one with the pig on it, “Eat your Pork” I think the quote on it was, I say this because Manson had some ideology that The Beatles were the horseman of the apocalypse or something, and had his own crazy interpretations of some of the white album songs, namely Piggies, which I’m pretty sure was one of the ones that was quoted in the blood of the innocent victims he told his followers to murder. Helter Skelter was also published in the 70’s, and King probably read it.

Definitely! Also got some Jim Jones vibes which is creepy since The Stand came before Jonestown (in fact, doesn't King write about that in Danse Macabre maybe?)

Doc Creed · Jan 8, 2019

Coolallosaurus said:
Lloyd seemed to suffer from misdirected loyalty and a desire for status. There's a part where Whitney et al. offer to take him along on their escape and he refuses, thinking through his lowered position outside of Flagg's circle.

Yes, exactly. I rooted for Lloyd's redemption even more than I did for Harold's.

Speaking of Harold- didn't Stu find his body and bury it (him)?

Group Discussion III: The Stand (40th Anniversary)

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