DNA Questions

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Dana Jean

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I read an article recently where two identical twins took one of those DNA tests and came up with slightly different results. I think those tests are more for fun than anything that might hold up in court at the present time.
I saw one with triplets and they were all different. Same regions, but different percentages. So, where is the science failing? In what we know about Twins/Triplets DNA etc..., or the DNA test itself? Or both? These tests keep getting more and more sophisticated, so I hope they continue with some solid breakthroughs in the field.

Can we even use DNA in criminal cases? Should we? Should we rely on it? Should we take a person's life because of it?
 

Dana Jean

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Okay, this is interesting.

If we discount DNA because of the Twin/Triplet thing -- why don't more lawyers site that particular case to say the DNA collected at a crime scene is flawed -- not because of bad collection practices -- but the very DNA itself and being able to connect it to one person. If the findings in one doesn't make sense, why should we accept any of the DNA findings in another? How could they be flawed in a way we might not understand yet, but we will give someone a death sentence because of it?

curiouser and curiouser
 

DiO'Bolic

Not completely obtuse
Nov 14, 2013
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No, just a basic ancestry.com one. It has made me want to do a more sophisticated test that breaks things down even more.

For instance, I'm 43% Europe West. This covers a sh*t ton of territory.

Belgium, France, Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein

Also found in: England, Denmark, Italy, Slovenia, Czech Republic

Unless you can track your ancestors to the smaller region, you're stuck with all of this. Now, through my research, I am narrowing it down to about 5. And a couple of them I have DNA broken down to that particular country already. So there is overlap. (If I'm saying that clearly)

Again, for instance, I am this 43 percent Europe West, but, I also have England broken down into a separate category all by itself.

I would like to take another that would just really break that down exactly.
I’ve never done any ancestry things but my father did for my mother, as there were family tales that they descended from ancient royalty. She was born in Ireland. My father hired some monks in Ireland that specialized in ancestry. I remember my father telling me one story that the Monks discovered my mother had descended from one of the worst medieval tyrants of Irish history. You can all refer to my as 'Your Lord' going forward. :p
 

Dana Jean

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I’ve never done any ancestry things but my father did for my mother, as there were family tales that they descended from ancient royalty. She was born in Ireland. My father hired some monks in Ireland that specialized in ancestry. I remember my father telling me one story that the Monks discovered my mother had descended from one of the worst medieval tyrants of Irish history. You can all refer to my as 'Your Lord' going forward. :p
I'm 32% Irish. I have a Lord, lady on my side too, through England. Baronesses, mayors, indentured servants, maybe a witchfinder, governors, lots and lots of farmers and many men of the cloth -- various religions.
 

ghost19

"Have I run too far to get home?"
Sep 25, 2011
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I saw one with triplets and they were all different. Same regions, but different percentages. So, where is the science failing? In what we know about Twins/Triplets DNA etc..., or the DNA test itself? Or both? These tests keep getting more and more sophisticated, so I hope they continue with some solid breakthroughs in the field.

Can we even use DNA in criminal cases? Should we? Should we rely on it? Should we take a person's life because of it?
DNA is used differently in criminal cases. It's not used to identify someone's ethnicity or where they come from but rather as an excluding measure. Unless you have a twin or a triplett, DNA usually eliminates 99.99999999999999999% of the rest of the population. In a criminal case, if you have someone's DNA on the body, etc. and it matches that person, the defense is going to have a very hard explaining why their client said he/she was not with that person or around that person on the date in questions. It's very much a game changes in a criminal case. Convicting someone using DNA backs up your case very well. Science won't commit to returning DNA lab results as 100% conclusive because they want to allow that minute percentage as a fail safe in case the sample is tainted, chain of evidence is not kept consistent, etc but when you can exclude 99.99999999% of the rest of the population as a suspect, it turns a spot light on the suspect you have in question, especially if he/she is saying "I never saw that person that day" or some other alibi he/she is trying to build against the case. We never lost a case where DNA backed up our findings. The suspect was either found guilty or took a plea deal because it makes it difficult for the defense to build their case. When DNA is matched that's when you typically see a defense team switch from saying their client wasn't there, didn't do it, etc to questioning the chain of evidence or investigative procedures. The defense switches from trying to prove their client's innocence to trying to prove the police mishandled the case. If you've done your job correctly, you usually start seeing the defense and their client start asking for a plea.
 

DiO'Bolic

Not completely obtuse
Nov 14, 2013
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I'm 32% Irish. I have a Lord, lady on my side too, through England. Baronesses, mayors, indentured servants, maybe a witchfinder, governors, lots and lots of farmers and many men of the cloth -- various religions.
My father also had something done on his side of the family, also. Nothing interesting as I recall. My paternal grandparents were both born in Slovakia. So as far as I know I'm 50% Irish (and even an Irish citizen based on their rules at the time because my mother was still an citizen of Ireland when I was born), and 50% Slovakian. Nothing interesting on that side. Mostly farmers and con men, I think :). We do have a coat of arms on that side, though. My brother got all that stuff after our parents passed away. Never much interested me.
 

Dana Jean

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My father also had something done on his side of the family, also. Nothing interesting as I recall. My paternal grandparents were both born in Slovakia. So as far as I know I'm 50% Irish (and even an Irish citizen based on their rules at the time because my mother was still an citizen of Ireland when I was born), and 50% Slovakian. Nothing interesting on that side. Mostly farmers and con men, I think :). We do have a coat of arms on that side, though. My brother got all that stuff after our parents passed away. Never much interested me.
It might interest YOUR descendants. You should get copies just to have. Someone down your dna strand will love you for it.
 

Dana Jean

Dirty Pirate Hooker, The Return
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Apr 11, 2006
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DNA is used differently in criminal cases. It's not used to identify someone's ethnicity or where they come from but rather as an excluding measure. Unless you have a twin or a triplett, DNA usually eliminates 99.99999999999999999% of the rest of the population. In a criminal case, if you have someone's DNA on the body, etc. and it matches that person, the defense is going to have a very hard explaining why their client said he/she was not with that person or around that person on the date in questions. It's very much a game changes in a criminal case. Convicting someone using DNA backs up your case very well. Science won't commit to returning DNA lab results as 100% conclusive because they want to allow that minute percentage as a fail safe in case the sample is tainted, chain of evidence is not kept consistent, etc but when you can exclude 99.99999999% of the rest of the population as a suspect, it turns a spot light on the suspect you have in question, especially if he/she is saying "I never saw that person that day" or some other alibi he/she is trying to build against the case. We never lost a case where DNA backed up our findings. The suspect was either found guilty or took a plea deal because it makes it difficult for the defense to build their case. When DNA is matched that's when you typically see a defense team switch from saying their client wasn't there, didn't do it, etc to questioning the chain of evidence or investigative procedures. The defense switches from trying to prove their client's innocence to trying to prove the police mishandled the case. If you've done your job correctly, you usually start seeing the defense and their client start asking for a plea.
I know DNA for criminal cases is different than ethnicity, but it is still a person's DNA. So, if something is flawed in one application, why can't it be flawed in another?

And how do we really know that it excludes 99.99999999% of the people. How? Have we tested every single person in the world to know that for sure?

devil meet dana, dana meet devil.
 

DiO'Bolic

Not completely obtuse
Nov 14, 2013
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Poconos, PA
It might interest YOUR descendants. You should get copies just to have. Someone down your dna strand will love you for it.
My one daughter who lives in the midwest did call me once inquiring about it. I rehashed what I knew and told her to contact her uncle for more information. I'll let her be the keeper of the family ancestry. And no one loves me... at best they tolerate me. :)
 

Dana Jean

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My one daughter who lives in the midwest did call me once inquiring about it. I rehashed what I knew and told her to contact her uncle for more information. I'll let her be the keeper of the family ancestry. And no one loves me... at best they tolerate me. :)
No, I'm being serious here.

I absolutely talked to my grandparents and my mom and dad and I listened to the stories. As did my brother and sister. But we didn't commit anything to paper. We had an aunt write down a little bit of information that has sent us on this quest to try to figure it out -- she raised more questions than she answered.

But, listening to these stories, what you know, is very different than having it written down. The mind fails us. Details fade. And someday when you are gone, your girls will be sitting around trying to remember these things, each with a vaguely different remembrance. Close enough, but still not quite all there. And they will be sad.

There are so many questions I would ask now that the young Dana didn't even think about when she had the chance. To even get names for the family tree as far back as you can go is great. Write them down. Pass them on.

And yes, they do love you and will be so grateful for your efforts.

Someday.

My people to ask are gone. I have no one to ask anymore.
 
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ghost19

"Have I run too far to get home?"
Sep 25, 2011
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I know DNA for criminal cases is different than ethnicity, but it is still a person's DNA. So, if something is flawed in one application, why can't it be flawed in another?

And how do we really know that it excludes 99.99999999% of the people. How? Have we tested every single person in the world to know that for sure?

devil meet dana, dana meet devil.
No, not everyone has been tested but based on the last 20 or 30 years of DNA testing and the CODIS DNA database, Forensic scientists keep coming to the conclusion that everyone's DNA is specific to that person based on research. At some point you have to either say it's conclusive or not conclusive based on the prior history of DNA evidence. Also, the testing for criminal DNA analysis is a bit different than one would be from Ancestry.com or something like that. Again, crime labs are trying to match up someone's DNA to prove that person was in contact with someone or something, not for the background info other than to say what race the suspect is. If I remember correctly the crime lab in Arkansas ran the test twice or maybe three times to make sure the sample was consistent and it tested the same every time.
 

DiO'Bolic

Not completely obtuse
Nov 14, 2013
22,864
129,998
Poconos, PA
No, I'm being serious here.

I absolutely talked to my grandparents and my mom and dad and I listened to the stories. As did my brother and sister. But we didn't commit anything to paper. We had an aunt write down a little bit of information that has sent us on this quest to try to figure it out -- she raised more questions than she answered.

But, listening to these stories, what you know, is very different than having it written down. The mind fails us. Details fade. And someday when you are gone, your girls will be sitting around trying to remember these things, each with a vaguely different remembrance. Close enough, but still not quite all there. And they will be sad.

There are so many questions I would ask now, that the young Dana didn't even think about when she had the chance. To even get names for the family tree as far back as you can go is great. Write them down. Pass them on.

And yes, they do love you and will be so grateful for your efforts.

Someday.

My people to ask are gone. I have no one to ask anymore.
The problem with my Irish side of the family is nobody knows the truth from the tales anymore. And I don't know much of my father's side. It has all become the same. I couldn't be confident any of the stories, except for names, is the truth or not. Our name should really have been 'Blarney.'

One funny story my grandfather on my father's side told me about the old country was after they spent the day in the field they smoked some hashish (poppies grew there and it was not illegal) and fell asleep in the barn. They woke up to the horses crapping all over their heads. I was young when he told me the story and my father quickly changed the subject because he didn't want me knowing his dad did what is considered illegal drugs, in the US now. I never knew my mother's father. She didn't want to speak about him as she had a horrible life growing up (her mother died after childbirth when my mother was 10 and she had to become the mother for 7 children, so there was not much she remembers of her). Her father sold the kids off as indentured servants during the summer months and even put them in an orphanage during school months. My mother worked sunup to sundown in the fields and her father got all the money for her work. I remember she said she put a pitchfork through the landowners hand once while bailing hay, and felt good about it.
 
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Dana Jean

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No, not everyone has been tested but based on the last 20 or 30 years of DNA testing and the CODIS DNA database, Forensic scientists keep coming to the conclusion that everyone's DNA is specific to that person based on research. At some point you have to either say it's conclusive or not conclusive based on the prior history of DNA evidence. Also, the testing for criminal DNA analysis is a bit different than one would be from Ancestry.com or something like that. Again, crime labs are trying to match up someone's DNA to prove that person was in contact with someone or something, not for the background info other than to say what race the suspect is. If I remember correctly the crime lab in Arkansas ran the test twice or maybe three times to make sure the sample was consistent and it tested the same every time.
No, I see what you are saying -- you are separating out the DNA for crime analysis from the ethnicity. But it is all the same blood.

So, when these Triplets (in my reading) tested, since they were identical, they said their DNA should be identical and it wasn't. Vastly different percentages. So, what's going on here? Either the DNA test is flawed, or we don't know everything we think we know about multiple births and their individuality on a cellular level.

So, I still say, even though they are different tests, it is still the same blood. Until we KNOW if it is the test that is flawed or the knowledge about multiple births is lacking, we have to look at all DNA testing with suspect.

If we can prove that it is the science of Twins et. al., that is different than what we knew, then fine, DNA can hold its head up high in the criminal arena knowing it is not the testing itself that is flawed.

Or, if we can prove that it is just the ethnicity tests that are flawed and not the criminal DNA, then we're still gold.

But, until they can figure out which it is, should we kill a man/woman based on his DNA alone?
 
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Dana Jean

Dirty Pirate Hooker, The Return
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Apr 11, 2006
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The problem with my Irish side of the family is nobody knows the truth from the tales anymore. And I don't know much of my father's side. It has all become the same. I couldn't be confident any of the stories, except for names, is the truth or not. Our name should really have been 'Blarney.'

One funny story my grandfather on my father's side told me about the old country was after they spent the day in the field they smoked some hashish (poppies grew there and it was not illegal) and fell asleep in the barn. They woke up to the horses crapping all over their heads. I was young when he told me the story and my father quickly changed the subject because he didn't want me knowing his dad did what is considered illegal drugs, in the US now. I never knew my mother's father. She didn't want to speak about him as she had a horrible life growing up (her mother died after childbirth when my mother was 10 and she had to become the mother for 7 children, so there was not much she remembers of her). Her father sold the kids off as indentured servants during the summer months and even put them in an orphanage during school months. My mother worked sunup to sundown in the fields and her father got all the money for her work. I remember she said she put a pitchfork through the landowners hand once while bailing hay, and felt good about it.
See? These are all stories you don't just tell, you write them down. Even the Blarney ones.

Of course everyone's stories are going to be embellished a bit. That's how it goes. That's what humans do. But, even those have a grain of truth in them. There is the seed, I believe of the truth. The rest is just window dressing and fun to read.
 

Spideyman

Uber Member
Jul 10, 2006
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No, I'm being serious here.

I absolutely talked to my grandparents and my mom and dad and I listened to the stories. As did my brother and sister. But we didn't commit anything to paper. We had an aunt write down a little bit of information that has sent us on this quest to try to figure it out -- she raised more questions than she answered.

But, listening to these stories, what you know, is very different than having it written down. The mind fails us. Details fade. And someday when you are gone, your girls will be sitting around trying to remember these things, each with a vaguely different remembrance. Close enough, but still not quite all there. And they will be sad.

There are so many questions I would ask now that the young Dana didn't even think about when she had the chance. To even get names for the family tree as far back as you can go is great. Write them down. Pass them on.

And yes, they do love you and will be so grateful for your efforts.

Someday.

My people to ask are gone. I have no one to ask anymore.
Not specific to DNA, rather passing down written information. I can not begin to tell you how many photo albums I have of my parents with no information on the back. Who are these people? No family members left to ask. Strangers in B/W.
 

Dana Jean

Dirty Pirate Hooker, The Return
Moderator
Apr 11, 2006
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Not specific to DNA, rather passing down written information. I can not begin to tell you how many photo albums I have of my parents with no information on the back. Who are these people? No family members left to ask. Strangers in B/W.
Absolutely. I know what you're saying. It honest to goodness fills me with such sorrow to not have these people here to talk to, just one more time. Let me sit you down and just let me listen to you one more time.

Okay. I'm crying now. I'll back out of here for a while.
 

DiO'Bolic

Not completely obtuse
Nov 14, 2013
22,864
129,998
Poconos, PA
See? These are all stories you don't just tell, you write them down. Even the Blarney ones.

Of course everyone's stories are going to be embellished a bit. That's how it goes. That's what humans do. But, even those have a grain of truth in them. There is the seed, I believe of the truth. The rest is just window dressing and fun to read.
One thing my wife is doing at the present time... She has old 8mm films from her parents and my parents. She looked into converting them to disk so they could be played on a dvd or the computer. It is ungodly expensive to send off and get done. She did some investigation and found a good machine that allows you to convert them yourself. It was almost $400. I told her to get it. She has been working on it for a long time now, because it takes forever. Almost an hour for each little 8mm reel. It actually takes a picture of each 8mm slide. A few years ago I got her a machine that converts VHS into computer files and then onto DVD's. She did all of ours and will someday work on the rest of the family. That's got to count for something, right? :)
 

GNTLGNT

The idiot is IN
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Dana Jean

Dirty Pirate Hooker, The Return
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One thing my wife is doing at the present time... She has old 8mm films from her parents and my parents. She looked into converting them to disk so they could be played on a dvd or the computer. It is ungodly expensive to send off and get done. She did some investigation and found a good machine that allows you to convert them yourself. It was almost $400. I told her to get it. She has been working on it for a long time now, because it takes forever. Almost an hour for each little 8mm reel. It actually takes a picture of each 8mm slide. A few years ago I got her a machine that converts VHS into computer files and then onto DVD's. She did all of ours and will someday work on the rest of the family. That's got to count for something, right? :)
Oh absolutely. That is fantastic. But get those old handed down stories in place too.