Dr. Who

[Mr Nobody]

Moderator: Good to hear. I didn't think it would be, but as I said it was really just a 'paranoid moment'. I've been having one of those times lately where, whatever you say (or type), someone seems to either misunderstand or generally take issue and you're left thinking 'What TH did I say?'
Since it's not likely to be a problem with everyone else but rather with the way I've been expressing things, I wanted to be clear(ish ).

CriticAndProud: My nephew's 16 and still likes it...but then he became such a fan that he actually wanted to see older eps, so he already knew who (and how) the Doctor had been in previous incarnations.
My niece, who's a couple of years younger, and most of my nephew's mates are only familiar with 'New Who'...and generally don't seem to know what to make of it now, though a fair few stopped watching pretty much straight away with more giving it a miss - or becoming indifferent about viewing instead of it being a must-watch - every week. At least, that's what he's told me in our usual weekly chat re: the latest ep, and that's what my initial comment was based upon.

What it all means for the future is anyone's guess. The BBC like to trumpet about it now, but it was the BBC who spent a fair portion of the 1980s trying to axe it in the first place (the fans' protests wouldn't let them, so they slashed the budget to the point where, when the chop finally was made, it came as something of a relief to many) and there was a lot of resistance to the idea of bringing it back in the first place. They're even back to treating it in the old 'bunt it around the schedule' manner. It used to be on at 7, pretty much every week. Changes, even by 5 minutes, were quite rare and (iirc) it used to split Strictly Come Dancing in two. Now, it's been pushed back so SCD is on for two solid hours, and what was 8.30 has become rather more flexible on a per-week basis.
It really gives off a feeling of lack of belief on Auntie's part - or a desire to kill it again (the BBC really doesn't seem to like SF, and the current controller has confessed to not being a fan of show or genre) - and tbh it's probably only still on air because of the merchandising income and the increase in popularity in America. If or when that goes, no doubt the Beeb will start sharpening the axe again. And they'll probably bloat SCD up to 3 hours ('cause it's nice, cheap 'reality' BS, the modern equivalent to bread and circuses to pacify the plebs).

As for the latest ep...I need to watch it again, perhaps when mildly drunk. (And for the record, trains like the one shown haven't been in service within my lifetime. I think they were probably phased out in the 60s when new models were rolled out and all serviceable older trains were repainted in the BR livery. There's a mystery for ya, Doc. )

 

[Ebdim9th]

Speaking of Torch songs:
And in another future iteration, I'd like to see John Noble take a swing at the Doctor, not that he hasn't sort of played that character already as Walter Bishop in Fringe....

 

[AnnaMarie]

Btw....I hated the Adam's Family nod. The hand coming out of the Tardis was just to phony and silly.

 

[Mr Nobody]

Btw....I hated the Adam's Family nod. The hand coming out of the Tardis was just to phony and silly.

It mightn't have been so bad if younger folks generally were very familiar with TAF, even the films, but I have to admit it only got a 'WTF?' frown from me and an impatient roll of the eyes (and a muttered comment, which I can't reproduce here but ran along the lines of 'My, isn't that rather silly?') from my gf.
I can't say that I was too struck by this week's ep, either. It started out promisingly (as other eps have this year), but took too many wrong turns - and some right early - and came up with an ending that managed to be even lamer and more scientifically illiterate than the 'egg moon' BS. (And while I get that it's science fiction, with a heavy slant on the fiction bit, there's no need to throw the science part completely under the bus.)
It's a bit weird, IMO, because some people are blaming Peter Capaldi for the apparent downturn, but ultimately while he may not be (isn't) everyone's cup of tea, he can only work with the scripts he's given - and for whatever reason, a lot of the scripts, particularly over this second half of the season (series, in the UK), have been...well...a bit crap. In fact, I'm starting to get seriously concerned for the future of Who (I was concerned before, but now it's looking a bit grave). The last time a lot of eps really had the 'promising to ludicrous' arc was back in the 1980s...when the BBC wanted rid of SF and were determined to kill off Dr Who. Of course, it may not be down to that. Maybe the writing's just been so iffy because there's no strong hand on the tiller (the new Sherlocks will suffer too, and for the same reason).
But, here we are at the finale, and I feel as if the series is still trying to come to terms with what Moffat now wants it to be - and I'm not entirely convinced that even he knows how he sees the future of the show.
Either way, Moffat is now in 'Lead, follow, or get out of the way' territory. It's becoming clear that he can't lead, he won't go back to being a follower, so that only leaves one option. The thing is, he won't give it up willingly. Someone at the Beeb is going to have to take it from him. That requires strong leadership on their part - and that is something that the Corporation has lacked, particularly in recent times.

 

[skimom2]

I don't think you're wrong r.e. American viewers, Mr. Nobody. As a nation, we do like things cut and dried, black and white, and think every thing has a logical explanation (thus the scandalous way we c*ck up reboots of foreign movies/TV). We're like not so charming teenagers--lol. With Who, the drop may be a combination of not appreciating the subtleties of a character whose motivations are ambiguous and our appalling obsession with youth, beauty, and what's 'new'. Capaldi is (GASP!) older and not as cutsey as Smith (though I personally find Capaldi more attractive--lol). Plus, Americans shift tv loyalties to what is trendy--Who as a cultural event was eclipsed by Sherlock (which I suspect will see a similar drop when it comes back), which will be eclipsed by (Name the show). Or maybe it won't be fashionable to follow Brit shows for a while--who knows? Pretty silly, but there you are. There has been a core audience that's watched Who for years (I remember starting with Baker. Of the newer Doctors, Eccleston is my favorite, but Capaldi is right up there), and that won't change much.

 

[Mr Nobody]

I don't think you're wrong r.e. American viewers, Mr. Nobody. As a nation, we do like things cut and dried, black and white, and think every thing has a logical explanation (thus the scandalous way we c*ck up reboots of foreign movies/TV). We're like not so charming teenagers--lol. With Who, the drop may be a combination of not appreciating the subtleties of a character whose motivations are ambiguous and our appalling obsession with youth, beauty, and what's 'new'. Capaldi is (GASP!) older and not as cutsey as Smith (though I personally find Capaldi more attractive--lol). Plus, Americans shift tv loyalties to what is trendy--Who as a cultural event was eclipsed by Sherlock (which I suspect will see a similar drop when it comes back), which will be eclipsed by (Name the show). Or maybe it won't be fashionable to follow Brit shows for a while--who knows? Pretty silly, but there you are. There has been a core audience that's watched Who for years (I remember starting with Baker. Of the newer Doctors, Eccleston is my favorite, but Capaldi is right up there), and that won't change much.

It shows, but it's not an inherently bad thing (at least in TV shows) and tbh a good 60% of my TV intake is of American (or Canadian) origin. It may even be more than that, but it's certainly not less. (I've got to broadly agree with your point about the reboots, though. Some of them turn out OK, but most others...best to leave them alone, or go and watch the original so it acts as a kind of sorbet, to cleanse the palate. )
It's funny. I made the point on another forum, years ago, that America is, in nationhood terms, only in its teenage years (most people reacted well/agreed, one or two went off on a strop...rather like teenagers ), so if Americans can be generalized as teenagers, it's purely a (relatively healthy) reflection of the age of the nation. But I also made the point then, and will do again now, that the US might be a 'teenager', but it's also a big bugger with a fairly quick temper. Generally, it's 'a good kid', a model of hope. But there are also other times...
(The UK, meanwhile, can be characterized as a toothless old lion that lost the fight for its pride long ago and is enduring a slow, lingering demise. Or an old lady who was once formidable, but now just sits in the corner muttering, largely to herself, while peeing her knickers.)

But...the nature of the US audience - always there in some way, not large enough for the Beeb to bother with (because, as with the US networks, when push comes to shove the overseas markets can lump it, no matter how strong or loyal a following a show has) - is such that our lot won't understand that these things wax and wane. They'll only see an overall dip, conclude that they have failed to 'crack' America in the end, and use that as a stick to beat the poor old Doctor to death with (again).

 

[CriticAndProud]

It shows, but it's not an inherently bad thing (at least in TV shows) and tbh a good 60% of my TV intake is of American (or Canadian) origin. It may even be more than that, but it's certainly not less. (I've got to broadly agree with your point about the reboots, though. Some of them turn out OK, but most others...best to leave them alone, or go and watch the original so it acts as a kind of sorbet, to cleanse the palate. )
It's funny. I made the point on another forum, years ago, that America is, in nationhood terms, only in its teenage years (most people reacted well/agreed, one or two went off on a strop...rather like teenagers ), so if Americans can be generalized as teenagers, it's purely a (relatively healthy) reflection of the age of the nation. But I also made the point then, and will do again now, that the US might be a 'teenager', but it's also a big bugger with a fairly quick temper. Generally, it's 'a good kid', a model of hope. But there are also other times...
(The UK, meanwhile, can be characterized as a toothless old lion that lost the fight for its pride long ago and is enduring a slow, lingering demise. Or an old lady who was once formidable, but now just sits in the corner muttering, largely to herself, while peeing her knickers.)

But...the nature of the US audience - always there in some way, not large enough for the Beeb to bother with (because, as with the US networks, when push comes to shove the overseas markets can lump it, no matter how strong or loyal a following a show has) - is such that our lot won't understand that these things wax and wane. They'll only see an overall dip, conclude that they have failed to 'crack' America in the end, and use that as a stick to beat the poor old Doctor to death with (again).

And Australia is the little kid eager to impress everyone.

 

[Mr Nobody]

And Australia is the little kid eager to impress everyone.

I like Australians. From what I've seen they're (you're) refreshingly blunt but honest.
(Also, I was almost an Aussie myself. My dad wanted to emigrate, had a job set up and everything, and he had a couple of uncles who'd already gone over (and AFAIK are still there), but my mom gave him a firm 'no'. Had he had his way, I'd have grown up in Perth. )

 

[AnnaMarie]

I loved this week.

 

[Ebdim9th]

Still watching Torchwood... the show was hit or miss, but 'Adrift' was definitely a hit, dead on target, Fringe before Fringe... John Barrowman is on Arrow now, showed up as a guest on The Talking Dead Sunday night...

 

[Mr Nobody]

I loved this week.

Yeah. It wasn't perfect, but it was a huge improvement on too many scripts this year (the fact that it seems to be a stand-out rather than just a good/very good ep tells its own story).
Fingers crossed that part 2 isn't a damp squib. I don't really see how it can be, but...this is Doctor Who!

Spoiler

Back at the start of the season, I twigged the Missy = Mistress = Master thing - it wasn't hard, after all - but now it's been made explicit in the first part, I'm wondering if it hasn't just been a smoke-screen. Missy at one point says something about being the one who was left behind. AFAIK, the Master was never left behind. Susan was, as was Romana II, and iirc the last time anyone saw the Rani she was in the company of the Master, in an out-of-control (thanks to the Doctor) TARDIS. We already know the Master escaped that somehow, so could the Rani be masquerading as the Master, perhaps with the intention of blackening his already dark name? Or will it turn out to be the Master after all? The Time Lords did grant him a new regeneration cycle. That allows for the possibility that Gallifreyans/Time Lords are only 'gender-locked' for 12 regenerations from the original/first version before switching for their next cycle (shades of Ursula K Le Guin) - meaning the Doc's next regeneration should be interesting.
I suppose it's a case of 'wait and see'.

 

[AnnaMarie]

Some of what Missy has said doesn't go with her being the Master. For example, a few weeks ago she said something in reference to Clara, something like "I chose well".

Clara, aka the impossible girl, started as a Dalek, and saved the Doctor. That doesn't jibe with The Master having chosen her...unless he means chose more recently.

I didn't think Gallifreyans were gender locked.

 

[CriticAndProud]

I was very confident that Missy was actually

Spoiler

The Rani.

Close, but no cigar.

 

[skimom2]

I'm suspicious that it's a red herring, especially after the Cybermen thing was so easy to spot. It would make sense to have her be lying--unreliable first person narrator. That's what I'd do, anyway--lol.

 

[Mr Nobody]

Some of what Missy has said doesn't go with her being the Master. For example, a few weeks ago she said something in reference to Clara, something like "I chose well".

Clara, aka the impossible girl, started as a Dalek, and saved the Doctor. That doesn't jibe with The Master having chosen her...unless he means chose more recently.

I didn't think Gallifreyans were gender locked.

On top of the 'Is she/isn't she?' thing...Moffat lies. He also plays tricks. He gives us Missy. A lot of people make the leap, then go 'I was right!'...only for Moff to go 'Wrong!' in the second part.
If that's how it goes, it will upset a lot of people - especially those who're using it to argue in favour of the Doc's next regeneration being a woman.

I admit, I have no idea what's going on with Clara anymore and, tbh, not much interest in finding out. (She's also the second 'impossible girl' - Amy Pond was more or less the first, but then Karen Gillan wanted out so...)
All will be revealed, but I'll be the one muttering 'Yes, yes, very good. Now go away'.

You never know. They are aliens, after all. But there'd have to be some mechanism whereby they flipped, assuming they even can. Otherwise, what are the odds of the Doc regenerating into a white bloke 12/13 times in a row? (And, presumably, the Master, who went through his regeneration cycle even though we only saw 4-5 incarnations. Roger Delgado, Anthony Ainsley, the one behind the rubber mask, Eric Roberts, and John Simm are all white blokes too.)
Either way, they also need to knock the 'last of the Time Lords' thing on the head now, since the Doctor clearly isn't and never really has been the last surviving member of his race.

 

[skimom2]

On top of the 'Is she/isn't she?' thing...Moffat lies. He also plays tricks. He gives us Missy. A lot of people make the leap, then go 'I was right!'...only for Moff to go 'Wrong!' in the second part.
If that's how it goes, it will upset a lot of people - especially those who're using it to argue in favour of the Doc's next regeneration being a woman.

I admit, I have no idea what's going on with Clara anymore and, tbh, not much interest in finding out. (She's also the second 'impossible girl' - Amy Pond was more or less the first, but then Karen Gillan wanted out so...)
All will be revealed, but I'll be the one muttering 'Yes, yes, very good. Now go away'.

You never know. They are aliens, after all. But there'd have to be some mechanism whereby they flipped, assuming they even can. Otherwise, what are the odds of the Doc regenerating into a white bloke 12/13 times in a row? (And, presumably, the Master, who went through his regeneration cycle even though we only saw 4-5 incarnations. Roger Delgado, Anthony Ainsley, the one behind the rubber mask, Eric Roberts, and John Simm are all white blokes too.)
Either way, they also need to knock the 'last of the Time Lords' thing on the head now, since the Doctor clearly isn't and never really has been the last surviving member of his race.

Daughter has suspicions that 'Clara' isn't Clara at all, but someone else. Would be interesting. We were just now talking about The Doctor (good time to check into the SKMB--lol), and Moffat's insistence that women are either magical angels (Clara, Amy) or bitches. He is not my favorite. Davies wrote his female characters much better.

 

[Mr Nobody]

Can't argue with that. Of course, with Clara he seems to want to do his whole range, magical angel straight to bitch (she's even flitted between the two in her relationship...though Danny is/was written as a controlling ass-hat too).
It's weird, because there used to be more to him as a writer. He did a series called Coupling, which pretty much nailed the in- and inter-relationship dynamics in a serious-but-funny way. (It was meant to be a comedy-drama, after all.)
Could be accidental, but it's probably not.

 

[Spideyman]

Season ender-- thoughts? (use spoiler) Christmas Special-- what does the Doctor want for Christmas???

 

[Mr Nobody]

Wh...wh-what?
Might just be me, but that ball was dropped so hard it generated enough power to nuke the fridge and send it flying over every damn shark in the all the oceans of this l'il ol' world.

 

[Ebdim9th]

The fridge.. or the TARDIS....