Just finished the book... SPOILERS and discussion

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mjs9153

Peripherally known member..
Nov 21, 2014
3,236
20,025
#41
I'm a little late but I finished the book about ten minutes ago. It was an enjoyable read, obviously, but definitely my least favourite in the trilogy. I just didn't think the Zappit plot device was all that interesting. It was too silly even by King's standards. I'd have to agree with others that the ending felt rushed, too, although I still found myself tearing up!

If I had to rate each of them:

Mr. Mercedes - 9/10
Finders Keepers - 10/10
End of Watch - 7/10

Anybody else wish he'd stuck with the original title of The Suicide Prince? Sounds like Tabitha wasn't too keen...
I disagree,and here is why..the title refers to Hodges,and his time not only as a cop,but also as one who is out watching for the public,his friends,and society in general..I think Brady got his due in the title Mr Mercedes,and the hero of this story,Hodges,got recognized rather than the creepy Brady..I agree that SP is a catchy title,but I am glad SK went with End of Watch,a little shout out to Bill..hell,he deserved some recognition after all he dealt with.. :grinning:
 
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Spideyman

Uber Member
Jul 10, 2006
40,472
147,693
73
Just north of Duma Key
#42
I disagree,and here is why..the title refers to Hodges,and his time not only as a cop,but also as one who is out watching for the public,his friends,and society in general..I think Brady got his due in the title Mr Mercedes,and the hero of this story,Hodges,got recognized rather than the creepy Brady..I agree that SP is a catchy title,but I am glad SK went with End of Watch,a little shout out to Bill..hell,he deserved some recognition after all he dealt with.. :grinning:
That was my take on the title also. The First book was all about Brady, the second about the detective agency,and the third a final call for Hodges. SP would have honored Brady, and that would not have felt right. The last book was for Hodges- this End of Watch-
 

champ1966

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
4,008
10,828
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Wakefield Yorkshire England
#43
My favourite Easter egg has to be Brooks, Brooks from Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption's twinner, he's the pusher of the library cart, they're both about the same age, in Shawshank he's 72, in EoW Babineau is 63 , Brooks is about 10 years older. They both also commit suicide.

With about 10 pages to go I honestly thought there was going to be a nod to the end of The Exorcist. Brady gets in to Hodges head, then Hodges commits suicide. Would have been quite fitting for a book about suicide. But was happy with the end.
 
Mar 8, 2012
5,428
25,620
NJ
#44
I agree on Lowtown. King managed to make me uncomfortable every time he talked about race (which was SO much) in the three Bill Hodges novels. He doesn't write black people well, never has. He's slightly better at LGBTQ characters, at least.
I don't think he writes black or LGBTQ characters well at all.
 

GNTLGNT

The idiot is IN
Jun 15, 2007
81,027
307,978
56
Cambridge, Ohio
#46
I don't think he writes black or LGBTQ characters well at all.
....I think this is a case of write what you know, and he is neither-however he at least has been fair and sympathetic to his characterizations...he only plays to stereotypes if the story requires it....at least that's how I see it....
 

Aloysius Nell

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2014
306
995
46
#50
A weak point here - although a minor one - was Barbara's trip to Lowtown. King's description of a poor black community read like something a rich white guy would envision from watching re-runs of Good Times. I expected some character to say "dy-no-mite" at any moment. Unintentionally funny, but.
I'm a police officer, and I deal with all walks of life. I often find poor black people speaking in a "stereotypically black" way, if I understand what you mean. And rich white people behaving like rich white people. And Hispanic working class folks behaving another way. We are a product of our environments. Most of us have more than one environment, but not everyone does. We follow the examples we see every day. Barbara's story rang very true to life with me.

Somehow, it's become racist to point out that in some places, black people DO use a stripped down, colloquial, dumb-sounding vocabulary. It's just a fact. It doesn't make King's story less "real" to set a scene there. If you don't believe me, follow these simple steps:

1. Locate the section 8 housing in your city, or a nearby one.
2. Go into the nearest 7-11. It will not be CALLED 7-11 or any other "name". It might be called "Food Mart", or "Snacks", or something else generic, but it will be there.
3. Stand there and listen to the customers come and go. They all know the clerk and he knows them. They will probably sound a lot like the characters that make you uncomfortable in Lowtown, only more so. In fact, the white and Hispanic customers will tend to sound the same, because that's their environment.
 

champ1966

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
4,008
10,828
52
Wakefield Yorkshire England
#52
I'm a police officer, and I deal with all walks of life. I often find poor black people speaking in a "stereotypically black" way, if I understand what you mean. And rich white people behaving like rich white people. And Hispanic working class folks behaving another way. We are a product of our environments. Most of us have more than one environment, but not everyone does. We follow the examples we see every day. Barbara's story rang very true to life with me.

Somehow, it's become racist to point out that in some places, black people DO use a stripped down, colloquial, dumb-sounding vocabulary. It's just a fact. It doesn't make King's story less "real" to set a scene there. If you don't believe me, follow these simple steps:

1. Locate the section 8 housing in your city, or a nearby one.
2. Go into the nearest 7-11. It will not be CALLED 7-11 or any other "name". It might be called "Food Mart", or "Snacks", or something else generic, but it will be there.
3. Stand there and listen to the customers come and go. They all know the clerk and he knows them. They will probably sound a lot like the characters that make you uncomfortable in Lowtown, only more so. In fact, the white and Hispanic customers will tend to sound the same, because that's their environment.
Fair point, 'stereotypes' belong in the 'paradox' thread.
 
Likes: GNTLGNT

Dana Jean

Reformed Dirty Pirate Hooker
Moderator
Apr 11, 2006
45,117
184,434
Thornfield
#53
I'm a police officer, and I deal with all walks of life. I often find poor black people speaking in a "stereotypically black" way, if I understand what you mean. And rich white people behaving like rich white people. And Hispanic working class folks behaving another way. We are a product of our environments. Most of us have more than one environment, but not everyone does. We follow the examples we see every day. Barbara's story rang very true to life with me.

Somehow, it's become racist to point out that in some places, black people DO use a stripped down, colloquial, dumb-sounding vocabulary. It's just a fact. It doesn't make King's story less "real" to set a scene there. If you don't believe me, follow these simple steps:

1. Locate the section 8 housing in your city, or a nearby one.
2. Go into the nearest 7-11. It will not be CALLED 7-11 or any other "name". It might be called "Food Mart", or "Snacks", or something else generic, but it will be there.
3. Stand there and listen to the customers come and go. They all know the clerk and he knows them. They will probably sound a lot like the characters that make you uncomfortable in Lowtown, only more so. In fact, the white and Hispanic customers will tend to sound the same, because that's their environment.
I agree with you on this. I have seen this happen. People switch the way they speak to fit who they are talking to and the environment they are in. And this is not just blacks that do this, as you pointed out.

And it is not racist to notice. It's called life and everyone just trying their best to fit in.
 
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GNTLGNT

The idiot is IN
Jun 15, 2007
81,027
307,978
56
Cambridge, Ohio
#54
I agree with you on this. I have seen this happen. People switch the way they speak to fit who they are talking to and the environment they are in. And this is not just blacks that do this as you pointed out.

And it is not racist to notice. It's called life and everyone just trying their best to fit in.
.....I myself have two different languages...the one I use at work with the inmates i.e. "prison speak"....then my normal verbiage outside of there-though once in awhile work does cross over and I get the WTF look from everyone.....
 

icarus

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2011
125
159
#55
Well, Ive read End of Watch now for a second time and Ive really enjoyed the read...this is a great story, but not my favourite of the trilogy....I really enjoyed Finders Keepers more...but thats not to say that End of Watch disappointed, I think its great....and it was great to have Brady Hartsfield back as the villain...I loved the characters in this....Bill Hodges is such a brave hero and the way he kept going even in such pain is very admiring...and Holly and Jerome are such a great team....
The idea of using a game pad to hypnotise people and take control was spooky to me...and the way he could then jump from person to person was really interesting too...
Im sad as this is the end of Bill and his nemesis Brady, but we might get a side story of Holly and Jerome in future.....heres hoping!
 

Walter Oobleck

keeps coming back...or going, and going, and going
Mar 6, 2013
11,749
34,773
#56
I agree on Lowtown. King managed to make me uncomfortable every time he talked about race (which was SO much) in the three Bill Hodges novels. He doesn't write black people well, never has. He's slightly better at LGBTQ characters, at least.
I don't think he writes black or LGBTQ characters well at all.
The thing of it is...how would any reader know a character is black, white, otherwise, or LGBTQ? The writer needs to insert something into the narrative to make it so, right? Considering the cast for The Dark Tower, Roland can be a black man. Did King write Roland well? Maybe I get hung up on the never/always thinking as I don't believe anything is the case of always/never. Don't think much of those questionnaires that ask me if something is always or never something. Rarely is, ever, maybe never. Oooops! o_O Now you got me doing it! I know I've read a story or two...not necessarily from King though maybe...where the reader doesn't discover a character is...something...until well into the story. I dunno...it seems to me that what it comes down to is the individual character. The individual character says or does something and the reader assumes no black person, no LGBTQ person, would say or do or act that way and that's not true. Somewhere, some place, there is a character that says or does just that...you just read it.

This is the first I've heard the expression blackish. Spoken by another in Lowtown.

How about Red, in Shawshank. I assume that character was possibly Irish in origin though I'm fairly certain Red was never given any Irish roots in the written story. But in the movie, Red is that famous actor...I think his name is Morgan? Or wait now...that doesn't sound right. Morgan what? Morgan Stanley I want to say. Probably way off. But I think that illustrates why some readers might have a problem with another reader saying so-and-so doesn't do black well...doesn't do LGBTQ well. Maybe, what you meant, and I think either one of both of you have made this point before...that the portrayal of a character who has the traits in question also had other traits you'd prefer not to see. But look at Red in Shawshank...the guy playing the part in the movie did it well. Super. But I'd hazard that Red in the story was "white"...though "white" was never used in the story to my knowledge.

So isn't it all about perceptions? The readers perceptions? And not necessarily the portrayal? :) Or not. Pretend I'm invisible.
 

Walter Oobleck

keeps coming back...or going, and going, and going
Mar 6, 2013
11,749
34,773
#58
yeah, Morgan Freeman. Who's Morgan Stanley? Maybe the grip.

Finished. Great story! Thought I read in a Watch thread that some thought it ended too quickly? Along those lines. Enjoyed the telling. Given time I'll make my index. Curious to learn what that might teach me. Now it's on to something else. The Buried Book looks like.
 

Aloysius Nell

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2014
306
995
46
#60
The thing of it is... Considering the cast for The Dark Tower, Roland can be a black man. Did King write Roland well? Maybe I get hung up on the never/always thinking as I don't believe anything is the case of always/never.
Not really...if you recall, when the Ka-tet arrives in River Crossing, the oldsters all remark over Susannah's dark skin, like the people of Garlan had. (Interesting tie-in with the Garlan in "Eyes".) So Roland can't be black, or he would also have been described that way.

But that's a tiny detail - I do get your meaning and would probably accept a black Roland on screen. Black Red didn't bother me nearly like the other changes in Shawshank did. (altered timeline, disposition of some characters, etc.)
 
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