Just saw IT! SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

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Wayoftheredpanda

Flaming Wonder Telepath
May 15, 2018
3,054
13,638
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This film succeeded in one area, if nothing else- it shows a believable bond between the kids.
I agree, the child acting was very on point and believable. Although I thought the plot point of Bev being kidnapped was stupid as it was very counter-intuitive to how her character is developed as not wanting to be thought of as less capable just because of her gender, ie she became a stereotypical damsel in distress to be rescued by the boys, I think it was at least acted out well and believably.
 

kingricefan

All-being, keeper of Space, Time & Dimension.
Jul 11, 2006
29,246
121,974
Spokane, WA
I can understand that. I went into it with very low expectations and was guarded because of all the unwelcome changes made. In the end, I didn't mind so much. It was a different angle, a different perspective. This film succeeded in one area, if nothing else- it shows a believable bond between the kids. That is difficult to do in a two hour film. The storylines are compressed, to say the least, but it ended up creating a vibe approaching that of the much beloved Stand By Me. I was impressed with the opening sequence, too. I don't understand why someone doesn't adapt this book as a limited series since there is so much to cover. Given the success of so many Netflix series and films, I'm hoping Boone chooses this route for The Stand.
This is exactly how I described this movie to folks that hadn't seen it before- 'it's Stand By Me with a killer clown.'
 

jdt827

Member
Jan 30, 2019
18
82
28
After they gave us the Reader's Digest condensed version of The Dark Tower and snatched away Beverly Marsh's glory by turning her into a damsel in distress in IT (I like to think of her as the gunslinger of the Losers Club) I have let my expectations fall. I'm just gonna go see this movie tomorrow and let it be what it is. But first I'm going to go see The Shawshank Redemption tonight. I've already seen it tons of times but never on the big screen. Maybe I'll even go see them back to back like in the old Double Feature days.
I certainly respect your opinion. Still, I would kindly argue she was no damsel in distress. In fact, every single character needed saving from the rest of the group at some point in that adaptation. It's only fair the girl has her moment as well. Beverly was the rock of the group and kicked ass in several scenes just like the rest of them. So I just don't think that's a fair assessment at all but to each their own.
 

Dana Jean

Moderator
Moderator
Apr 11, 2006
49,394
211,860
Thornfield
I certainly respect your opinion. Still, I would kindly argue she was no damsel in distress. In fact, every single character needed saving from the rest of the group at some point in that adaptation. It's only fair the girl has her moment as well. Beverly was the rock of the group and kicked ass in several scenes just like the rest of them. So I just don't think that's a fair assessment at all but to each their own.
Agree. No damsel in distress.
 

preciousroy

Well-Known Member
Apr 4, 2018
123
460
I certainly respect your opinion. Still, I would kindly argue she was no damsel in distress. In fact, every single character needed saving from the rest of the group at some point in that adaptation. It's only fair the girl has her moment as well. Beverly was the rock of the group and kicked ass in several scenes just like the rest of them. So I just don't think that's a fair assessment at all but to each their own.
I was specifically thinking about how she was kidnapped and used as bait for the boys to come to her rescue, and the followup Disney princess kiss delivered to her by Ben.
This was Hollywood cliche jammed in there for the lowest common denominator. She was, as you say, as tough as the rest of them.
 

jdt827

Member
Jan 30, 2019
18
82
28
I was specifically thinking about how she was kidnapped and used as bait for the boys to come to her rescue, and the followup Disney princess kiss delivered to her by Ben.
This was Hollywood cliche jammed in there for the lowest common denominator. She was, as you say, as tough as the rest of them.
I can understand that but I think narratively, it made sense for her to be in that situation.I think it was an incredible movie. For me, the best way to understand the damsel aspect is to look at the big picture. But no movie is for everyone. It's okay that it wasn't for you. Do you have a favorite SK adaptation?
 

preciousroy

Well-Known Member
Apr 4, 2018
123
460
I can understand that but I think narratively, it made sense for her to be in that situation.I think it was an incredible movie. For me, the best way to understand the damsel aspect is to look at the big picture. But no movie is for everyone. It's okay that it wasn't for you. Do you have a favorite SK adaptation?
Well a big part of the problem for me is measuring the adaptation against the book. As a standalone production I guess the change is forgivable but as an adapatation I feel like it detracts from the strength of the circle for one of the kids to be taken so easily, and it flies in the face of Pennywise being afraid of each of them as seen in his hesitation to kill them. The power of the Losers Club was the sum of its parts. Originally they all chose their destination together, even if they were being chased. The change took Beverly's choice to be brave and face everything just like the boys and made her into a victim in a way that she hadn't been before. I certainly believe that they would band together to rescue any one of the group regardless of who was in danger, and that they all needed each other equally. I think Eddie would have been the more vulnerable target being that he was smaller and had been convinced he was weaker than other children. He was injured, too, wasn't he?

Beverly was sort of grandfathered-in as the romance token. Consider that the adaptation also changed her history with Bill. Despite being 11, they've already been in a relationship and broken up. I can't recall but doesn't Richie say something about how their relationship was a bit of a buzz throughout the whole class? To me that suggests healthy growth and functionality in their social lives and interactions in the real world. The complete opposite of Losers. But it makes them look "cooler" to the audience behind the 4th wall who have come to expect this aspect in every movie. The hero always gets the girl. Romantic and sexual success are qualities envied in society and indeed vital to propagation of the human race. Besides it being a Hollywood cliche, the viewer will also subconsciously pick up on it and have their opinion of the character affected, subverting the need to actually tell it or develop it in the story. The story is sacrificed on the Altar of Cliche.

After Georgie dies in the book we understand that neither of them (except maybe Mike) had anyone to reach out to before they came together. Even before Georgie died his brother was known to everyone as Stuttering Bill. Changing Bill's history with Beverly takes away from that. It cheapens what it meant for them to find each other and fall in love. To me, what made the Losers finding each other so special was the utter absence of love in their lives up to the present, the maladapted way in which they all fit into their worlds.

Plus, we all know Beverly in the book becomes sexual on her own terms and stays that way until she meets Tom. She is in control of her femininity even as it just begins to develop. Symbolically, this has been taken away from her when turning her into a victim that needs rescue. And again when Ben kisses her to wake her up (so cliche!) Thus, we are faced with another cliche that everyone likes to see: the underdog getting the girl. Whether it's the hero or the underdog, the girl is the trophy. The audience knows Ben pines for Beverly with a true love that most also know will come to be actualized in adulthood. Besides the fact that there was no consent to the kiss, it blows the wad early on with the Ben/Beverly romance. But it can be said this was an artful way of avoiding what Beverly does to bring everyone together under the sewers in the book.

Ben and Beverly's romance is a big part of the adult story. This kiss coming so early, even so one-sided and involuntarily, has again cheapened the element of their romance. Beverly is Sleeping Beauty. She sleeps/floats through the semi-final confrontation. She's the reason for the mission, instead of being a member of the mission team. She takes no glory from the semi-final battle with Pennywise because she has been captured and subdued.

This is my opinion as to why and how Beverly's character was cheated in this movie. Beverly is better than that and deserved more than to become a trope. In the book Bill and Ben both loved Beverly. She wasn't a token object to be used in service to the plot, and if you remove the scene in the sewers where the children all symbolically become adults, then neither of them achieved actualization with each other in this aspect until they were mature adults. And only when they were adults were they truly of sound mind to make the choice to become romantically involved with each other. What happened under the sewers was more akin to survival, however inappropriate some may find it.

When you consider all this meaningful mumbo-jumbo, the movie severely stole Beverly's character from her. The audience still felt she was a rockstar, but I feel like that's due more to socio-political climate and the fact that the actor gave a great performance. Making her a kidnap victim makes her weaker than the rest of the circle. Making her need rescue makes her sit out of the fight when, as I said earlier, the circle was the sum of its parts. They needed her to fight just as much as anyone else. We see this in the book when the battle as adults goes much less smoothly than before, considering the absence of Stan and Mike.

Off the top of my head I can't think of my favorite adaptation. When the books are so good it's hard to see adaptations make so many unnecessary changes. If you didn't know money was the bottom line it would boggle the mind to see how movies can be so different from the source material. It's the source material that made the book great in the first place, the whole reason it earned a movie adaptation in the first place. It doesn't need to be altered, it's great because of what it already is. It's like this with movies based on video games, too. The original vision is the whole reason the product is here, the whole reason a movie is being made, but those greedy a-holes in charge can't ever seem to be loyal to that vision.

I guess I would say 1408. I was a huge Silent Hill fan when I first saw it (not having read the story beforehand) and all I could think about was how well it would fit into the series. Of course, I would come to find that Stephen King had been a huge influence on the story of the game and it would all make sense.
 

jdt827

Member
Jan 30, 2019
18
82
28
Well a big part of the problem for me is measuring the adaptation against the book. As a standalone production I guess the change is forgivable but as an adapatation I feel like it detracts from the strength of the circle for one of the kids to be taken so easily, and it flies in the face of Pennywise being afraid of each of them as seen in his hesitation to kill them. The power of the Losers Club was the sum of its parts. Originally they all chose their destination together, even if they were being chased. The change took Beverly's choice to be brave and face everything just like the boys and made her into a victim in a way that she hadn't been before. I certainly believe that they would band together to rescue any one of the group regardless of who was in danger, and that they all needed each other equally. I think Eddie would have been the more vulnerable target being that he was smaller and had been convinced he was weaker than other children. He was injured, too, wasn't he?

Beverly was sort of grandfathered-in as the romance token. Consider that the adaptation also changed her history with Bill. Despite being 11, they've already been in a relationship and broken up. I can't recall but doesn't Richie say something about how their relationship was a bit of a buzz throughout the whole class? To me that suggests healthy growth and functionality in their social lives and interactions in the real world. The complete opposite of Losers. But it makes them look "cooler" to the audience behind the 4th wall who have come to expect this aspect in every movie. The hero always gets the girl. Romantic and sexual success are qualities envied in society and indeed vital to propagation of the human race. Besides it being a Hollywood cliche, the viewer will also subconsciously pick up on it and have their opinion of the character affected, subverting the need to actually tell it or develop it in the story. The story is sacrificed on the Altar of Cliche.

After Georgie dies in the book we understand that neither of them (except maybe Mike) had anyone to reach out to before they came together. Even before Georgie died his brother was known to everyone as Stuttering Bill. Changing Bill's history with Beverly takes away from that. It cheapens what it meant for them to find each other and fall in love. To me, what made the Losers finding each other so special was the utter absence of love in their lives up to the present, the maladapted way in which they all fit into their worlds.

Plus, we all know Beverly in the book becomes sexual on her own terms and stays that way until she meets Tom. She is in control of her femininity even as it just begins to develop. Symbolically, this has been taken away from her when turning her into a victim that needs rescue. And again when Ben kisses her to wake her up (so cliche!) Thus, we are faced with another cliche that everyone likes to see: the underdog getting the girl. Whether it's the hero or the underdog, the girl is the trophy. The audience knows Ben pines for Beverly with a true love that most also know will come to be actualized in adulthood. Besides the fact that there was no consent to the kiss, it blows the wad early on with the Ben/Beverly romance. But it can be said this was an artful way of avoiding what Beverly does to bring everyone together under the sewers in the book.

Ben and Beverly's romance is a big part of the adult story. This kiss coming so early, even so one-sided and involuntarily, has again cheapened the element of their romance. Beverly is Sleeping Beauty. She sleeps/floats through the semi-final confrontation. She's the reason for the mission, instead of being a member of the mission team. She takes no glory from the semi-final battle with Pennywise because she has been captured and subdued.

This is my opinion as to why and how Beverly's character was cheated in this movie. Beverly is better than that and deserved more than to become a trope. In the book Bill and Ben both loved Beverly. She wasn't a token object to be used in service to the plot, and if you remove the scene in the sewers where the children all symbolically become adults, then neither of them achieved actualization with each other in this aspect until they were mature adults. And only when they were adults were they truly of sound mind to make the choice to become romantically involved with each other. What happened under the sewers was more akin to survival, however inappropriate some may find it.

When you consider all this meaningful mumbo-jumbo, the movie severely stole Beverly's character from her. The audience still felt she was a rockstar, but I feel like that's due more to socio-political climate and the fact that the actor gave a great performance. Making her a kidnap victim makes her weaker than the rest of the circle. Making her need rescue makes her sit out of the fight when, as I said earlier, the circle was the sum of its parts. They needed her to fight just as much as anyone else. We see this in the book when the battle as adults goes much less smoothly than before, considering the absence of Stan and Mike.

Off the top of my head I can't think of my favorite adaptation. When the books are so good it's hard to see adaptations make so many unnecessary changes. If you didn't know money was the bottom line it would boggle the mind to see how movies can be so different from the source material. It's the source material that made the book great in the first place, the whole reason it earned a movie adaptation in the first place. It doesn't need to be altered, it's great because of what it already is. It's like this with movies based on video games, too. The original vision is the whole reason the product is here, the whole reason a movie is being made, but those greedy a-holes in charge can't ever seem to be loyal to that vision.

I guess I would say 1408. I was a huge Silent Hill fan when I first saw it (not having read the story beforehand) and all I could think about was how well it would fit into the series. Of course, I would come to find that Stephen King had been a huge influence on the story of the game and it would all make sense.
You make great points when you compare! I try to just watch the movie as a movie. But think of this as well, Bev was so strong she kicked her dad's ass. And even though Pennywise took her, she was too brave, he couldn't eat her because she was fearless. So he may have gotten a hold of her, but she kicked every villians ass and put two different poles through his head!

I love 1408. I also really loved The Mist! King said he wishes he'd thought of that ending for the book. Gerald's Game and Delores Claiborne are highly underrated in my book :)
 

Deviancy

I go Boo.....
Mar 20, 2019
159
517
46
California
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Bev was so strong she kicked her dad's ass. And even though Pennywise took her, she was too brave, he couldn't eat her because she was fearless. So he may have gotten a hold of her, but she kicked every villians ass and put two different poles through his head!
Bev totally kicked ass in the film, easily my second favorite Loser.
 

kingricefan

All-being, keeper of Space, Time & Dimension.
Jul 11, 2006
29,246
121,974
Spokane, WA
You make great points when you compare! I try to just watch the movie as a movie. But think of this as well, Bev was so strong she kicked her dad's ass. And even though Pennywise took her, she was too brave, he couldn't eat her because she was fearless. So he may have gotten a hold of her, but she kicked every villians ass and put two different poles through his head!

I love 1408. I also really loved The Mist! King said he wishes he'd thought of that ending for the book. Gerald's Game and Delores Claiborne are highly underrated in my book :)
Delores Claiborne is one of the most underrated King films there is. Kathy Bates owned that character and it's a shame that she wasn't acknowledged by her peers in LaLaLand for it.
 

preciousroy

Well-Known Member
Apr 4, 2018
123
460
You make great points when you compare! I try to just watch the movie as a movie. But think of this as well, Bev was so strong she kicked her dad's ass. And even though Pennywise took her, she was too brave, he couldn't eat her because she was fearless. So he may have gotten a hold of her, but she kicked every villians ass and put two different poles through his head!

I love 1408. I also really loved The Mist! King said he wishes he'd thought of that ending for the book. Gerald's Game and Delores Claiborne are highly underrated in my book :)
Gosh, I haven't seen Dolores Claiborne since 99/00. It all went over my head because of the subject matter and my age. I wasn't expecting the story we got. I've never read Gerald's Game or Dolores Claiborne but the scene near the end of the Gerald's Game movie was especially gruesome for my tastes. I imagine I'll get around to reading them eventually. I'm still struggling through Duma Key at the moment.

Unfortunately for Kathy Bates (or fortunately?) she'll always be Mama Boucher to me.
 
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