Loophole for IT *Spoilers*

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TheRedQueen

And Crazy Housewife
Dec 3, 2014
1,346
8,158
30
Fernley, NV.
#1
There will be spoilers for both IT and Dreamcatcher in this post, so if you have not read either of these books, well, you've been "spoiler alerted".









Anyway. I've read both IT and Dreamcatcher recently, and I noticed something.

In IT, we are told that the Losers, including Mike, begin to forget their experiences and each other. It's never said right out that they forgot everything, but it's heavily implied. And then, in Dreamcatcher, when Mr. Gray arrives at the top of the hill where the Standpipe used to be, he finds a statue dedicated to all the lost souls in '85, and to the children...all the children. And this statue was donated by the Losers. It said so right on the pedestal, and all their names were there.

So if the Losers forgot everything, or even as much as was implied, how did they think to put up a statue?

Then there is the question of Mr. Gray himself. Who else do we know that called ITself Mr. Gray? (Or was it Grey?) And then the ominous note of: "Pennywise Lives". Were the byrum drawn to Derry because of the residue IT left behind?



And gosh, between Bob Grey, Mr. Gray, and the Greys from Lud, I think Sai King should have written "50 Shades". It would have been a hell of a lot more interesting! ;;D
 

champ1966

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
4,008
10,828
52
Wakefield Yorkshire England
#2
There will be spoilers for both IT and Dreamcatcher in this post, so if you have not read either of these books, well, you've been "spoiler alerted".









Anyway. I've read both IT and Dreamcatcher recently, and I noticed something.

In IT, we are told that the Losers, including Mike, begin to forget their experiences and each other. It's never said right out that they forgot everything, but it's heavily implied. And then, in Dreamcatcher, when Mr. Gray arrives at the top of the hill where the Standpipe used to be, he finds a statue dedicated to all the lost souls in '85, and to the children...all the children. And this statue was donated by the Losers. It said so right on the pedestal, and all their names were there.

So if the Losers forgot everything, or even as much as was implied, how did they think to put up a statue?

Then there is the question of Mr. Gray himself. Who else do we know that called ITself Mr. Gray? (Or was it Grey?) And then the ominous note of: "Pennywise Lives". Were the byrum drawn to Derry because of the residue IT left behind?



And gosh, between Bob Grey, Mr. Gray, and the Greys from Lud, I think Sai King should have written "50 Shades". It would have been a hell of a lot more interesting! ;;D
Mike remembers, it's when they leave Derry that they start to forget.
 

Doc Creed

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2015
14,836
65,858
United States
#4
Yeah, Mike was the lighthouse keeper, the memory keeper who stayed behind in Derry. He even was an amateur historian, interviewing the older denizens and writing about the "real" Derry. He was definitely the one who helped the adult Losers remember certain events. However, this changes at the end. Mike is still writing in his notebook after being hospitilized, so as not to forget. But here is a scene at the end which solidifies it:

(Mike is in hospital and has just called Richie who is back in California.)

(Richie) "...And the reason I let you talk to the tape as long as I did-"

(Mike) "-was because at first you didn't have the slightest idea who I was."

"Jesus, that's right! How did you know that?"

"Because we're forgetting again. All of us this time."

(Page 1074 of paperback.)

As far as the Losers statue, I guess one (if not all of the remaining) had the presence of mind to memorialize what happened. They were losing memories but I personally don't feel they were amnesiacs. I think their past was fuzzy, hazy...not erased. After all, Mike has a written account of these events as a reminder, if nothing else. Just my opinion.
 

Doc Creed

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2015
14,836
65,858
United States
#6
The scene in Dreamcatcher (book not film) , for some reason reminds me of when Noodles in Once Upon a Time in America, goes back to New York, to the mausoleum for his friends. Not that you'd now about that Doc, ya OUaTiA virgin. Wish I knew how to do the pig shaking its head smiley ;)
Yep, never heard of it. Just googled it. I loved Goodfellas, The Godfather, and The Sopranos so I'm sure I would like it.
 

Bardo

Well-Known Member
Nov 19, 2011
305
1,407
san diego
#7
Or,
"there are other worlds than these" theory,
Alternate universe or reality string if you will, Where Mike continues to keep his memories.
OP makes a good point!
Distinctly remember Mikey beginning to forget and the actually writting starts disapperaing from the pages of his notebook
 

Walter Oobleck

keeps coming back...or going, and going, and going
Mar 6, 2013
11,749
34,773
#8
Good question. Maybe they pooled their resources, their sacred honor, and they decided to do this (off camera) when they met in the restaurant? Or wait now...timing'd be off. Ummm. I dunno. That's my contribution anyway...maybe they'd decided to do this at some point after the fact. Maybe when they realized the process was in effect, they, in effect, made a memorial to not forget. I dunno. Is this going to be on the test?
 

Nomik

Carry on
Jun 19, 2016
3,597
18,109
41
Derry, NH
#10
Yeah, Mike was the lighthouse keeper, the memory keeper who stayed behind in Derry. He even was an amateur historian, interviewing the older denizens and writing about the "real" Derry. He was definitely the one who helped the adult Losers remember certain events. However, this changes at the end. Mike is still writing in his notebook after being hospitilized, so as not to forget. But here is a scene at the end which solidifies it:

(Mike is in hospital and has just called Richie who is back in California.)

(Richie) "...And the reason I let you talk to the tape as long as I did-"

(Mike) "-was because at first you didn't have the slightest idea who I was."

"Jesus, that's right! How did you know that?"

"Because we're forgetting again. All of us this time."

(Page 1074 of paperback.)

As far as the Losers statue, I guess one (if not all of the remaining) had the presence of mind to memorialize what happened. They were losing memories but I personally don't feel they were amnesiacs. I think their past was fuzzy, hazy...not erased. After all, Mike has a written account of these events as a reminder, if nothing else. Just my opinion.
AGREED
 

dedMasque

Active Member
Jan 19, 2018
27
79
32
Kentucky
#11
I'm pretty sure that Richie Tozier and Beverly Marsh appear in 11/22/63 as well. A scene where they're adults out dancing or something. So they would have remembered each other for sometime after leaving Derry so their memories may have not been lost all at once, probably more over time and starting with their memories of Pennywise first.
 

dedMasque

Active Member
Jan 19, 2018
27
79
32
Kentucky
#14
Really its kind of left up to the reader to interpret because the books don't intertwine fully. As in they're not a trilogy of sorts even though they sometimes do share characters like the boy's that we're accused of killing Andre Melon in It later turning up in Storm of the Century and I believe in Shawshank Redemption. However, other then only slightly mentioning them they are still separate stories. It's more of a means to show that the stories exist in the same universe but are still their own story none the less.
 

preciousroy

Active Member
Apr 4, 2018
33
140
#15
The dedication in the park made me wonder as well. Mike did begin to forget after the second confrontation which ended in victory for the Losers. He mentions that he and Bill (or maybe Richie?) are beginning to forget each other and further allusion to the erasure is that his notebooks are fading.

I know Mike was the librarian and that Derry was really small but where did the Losers get the clout to have a statue placed in the park with a dedication openly referencing the missing children in Derrys past? I got the feeling that It's influence over Derry contributed to adults ignoring things or not "seeing" them before this. So I could understand if now the officials in Derry might be more willing to admit there was a problem with missing children once the influence was supposedly gone. I'm still not convinced, though.

Plus, they all left Derry pretty quickly afterwards.

Who left the graffiti? Who knew Pennywise personally or otherwise and who knew that It was believed to be dead? If it wasn't the Losers then someone would have had to have known about them and their epic confrontation yet stayed completely off the radar and undetected and possibly without offering any sort of help at all.

My guess: Ben didn't get all of the eggs in the darkness. Whatever hatched out of the egg shared a full awareness of everything It knew including history and origin. I'm only guessing this but the idea came to me when I remembered Pennywise tormenting adult Beverly saying "My madder is my fadder." Maybe It wasn't only female as the eggs would indicate, but also male as the comment would indicate?
 

dedMasque

Active Member
Jan 19, 2018
27
79
32
Kentucky
#17
Who left the graffiti? Who knew Pennywise personally or otherwise and who knew that It was believed to be dead? If it wasn't the Losers then someone would have had to have known about them and their epic confrontation yet stayed completely off the radar and undetected and possibly without offering any sort of help at all.

My guess: Ben didn't get all of the eggs in the darkness. Whatever hatched out of the egg shared a full awareness of everything It knew including history and origin. I'm only guessing this but the idea came to me when I remembered Pennywise tormenting adult Beverly saying "My madder is my fadder." Maybe It wasn't only female as the eggs would indicate, but also male as the comment would indicate?
There's a good chance the message was intended to have been left by one of the Dark Tower characters or maybe even another time traveler since pretty much established that time travel does exist as well as inter dimensional travel in Kings universe. Maybe even a setup to another story if King ever chose to write it.
 
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