Common Core - JUST SHOOT ME NOW!

[mustangclaire]

Apparently I could take classes to get me to GCSE.... I humbly told my friend that suggested it I would probably have to go back a bit further than that. Stupid thing is, working behind bars (alcohol, not prison) I could add up rounds of drinks in my head no problem. Put me in a learning environment regarding maths and I'm sweating big time. I feel AWFUL I can't help my boy with his homework. Having said that though, we do sit down and work through it, and I surprised myself t'other day by actually feeling like my 11 year old had TAUGHT me something. Perhaps that's the way... Dana Jean I feel your pain, sincerely.

 

[Dana Jean]

Apparently I could take classes to get me to GCSE.... I humbly told my friend that suggested it I would probably have to go back a bit further than that. Stupid thing is, working behind bars (alcohol, not prison) I could add up rounds of drinks in my head no problem. Put me in a learning environment regarding maths and I'm sweating big time. I feel AWFUL I can't help my boy with his homework. Having said that though, we do sit down and work through it, and I surprised myself t'other day by actually feeling like my 11 year old had TAUGHT me something. Perhaps that's the way... Dana Jean I feel your pain, sincerely.

I feel yours too. I can do math in real world situations. For instance, quilting is geometry, fractions -- I can do it! But you write out a math problem in that regard, nope. I'm cooked. Some day both of us will conquer this block we have. We can do it!

 

[hossenpepper]

Good lord... calm down everyone. First off, common core is not a mandate and never was. The ONLY thing where it was required was for the Race to the Top campaign which did not determine federal funding that was already in palce, but rather EXTRA funding. Next, this stuff isn't that hard. Remember doing subtraction the old way? Cross out the ones numbers and write the next smaller one so the tens column can borrow it, etc.? It's the same thuing, only in a linear fashion. Why are they doing this? Very simply put, becasue this is how you are required to think to get through calculus. And just like small towns wher they implement the same football offense in pee wee up through high school, we are training our kids to think the way calculus makes you think. Calculus is all about WHY math works the way it does and this is done by learning differnt ways to logically break down the number progressions.

But regardless of whether or not you get it, what has the way we all learned done for us? We have fallen severely behind in math and subsequently engineering and common core is an attempt to address this problem by starting them young on learning to think logically about math so more complex can be done in their head. Different does not equal bad. Does it work? Well, I have teenagers that have learned under these new techniques. Now my kids did get some of my ability, but my 16 year old daughter is already an expert at calculus BECAUSE she learned it this way. So I tried it myself. And it WAS confusing, not because it was so convoluted, but because it battled with my entrenched way of approaching math. But after I learned it, it is easier in many ways. But if you think this is a refinement of the process we used, you're wrong. It's a NEW approach and so far it is working quite well. On a side note, I HAD to learn it because one of my projects at work is building curriculum, presentations and content for K-12 districts around the US. Being directly involved in things relating to the common core stuff, I support it fully. I will also say that education is my #1 subject and passion so I keep up with the latest and greatest of what is going on with it.

Sadly, political rhetoric has clouded an educational issue because it was championed by Obama.

 

[Mr Nobody]

The example in the OP looks like the method my nephew and niece were taught in their primary years (up to 11). It doesn't work, not least because they were getting sums marked as correct when the only correct thing about them was that they'd followed the method! (I was asked to go through their homework with them a few times, and they were coming up with the wrong answers about 50% of the time. They took the papers back, they were marked and graded - 70-80%+. Bs. (That's as is 'bees', not bullsheen. Although...)
The joke of it was, when they went up to secondary school they were expected to do it the 'old' (i.e. proper) way...and of course they didn't know how. I've spent hours with them, trying to show them how simple the basic mathematical functions really can be, once you've come to terms with them (my sister's duff at maths, so it fell to me because I've been known to do maths problems for fun. What're you looking at me like that for? ).
My nephew's just finished compulsory school and has gone to college. He got a C in GCSE Maths, but he's still not too confident in his ability, and it all comes down to the ridiculous, BS way he was taught right at the start. (And woe betide you if you tried teaching them better!)

 

[Moderator]

Good lord... calm down everyone. First off, common core is not a mandate and never was. The ONLY thing where it was required was for the Race to the Top campaign which did not determine federal funding that was already in palce, but rather EXTRA funding. Next, this stuff isn't that hard. Remember doing subtraction the old way? Cross out the ones numbers and write the next smaller one so the tens column can borrow it, etc.? It's the same thuing, only in a linear fashion. Why are they doing this? Very simply put, becasue this is how you are required to think to get through calculus. And just like small towns wher they implement the same football offense in pee wee up through high school, we are training our kids to think the way calculus makes you think. Calculus is all about WHY math works the way it does and this is done by learning differnt ways to logically break down the number progressions.

But regardless of whether or not you get it, what has the way we all learned done for us? We have fallen severely behind in math and subsequently engineering and common core is an attempt to address this problem by starting them young on learning to think logically about math so more complex can be done in their head. Different does not equal bad. Does it work? Well, I have teenagers that have learned under these new techniques. Now my kids did get some of my ability, but my 16 year old daughter is already an expert at calculus BECAUSE she learned it this way. So I tried it myself. And it WAS confusing, not because it was so convoluted, but because it battled with my entrenched way of approaching math. But after I learned it, it is easier in many ways. But if you think this is a refinement of the process we used, you're wrong. It's a NEW approach and so far it is working quite well. On a side note, I HAD to learn it because one of my projects at work is building curriculum, presentations and content for K-12 districts around the US. Being directly involved in things relating to the common core stuff, I support it fully. I will also say that education is my #1 subject and passion so I keep up with the latest and greatest of what is going on with it.

Sadly, political rhetoric has clouded an educational issue because it was championed by Obama.

And we need to take calculus why? I've managed to get through life so far without ever having taken it and can think pretty logically most of the time and do basic math (much more necessary in everyday life) without a calculator or a ream of paper.

 

[hossenpepper]

And we need to take calculus why? I've managed to get through life so far without ever having taken it and can think pretty logically most of the time and do basic math (much more necessary in everyday life) without a calculator or a ream of paper.

Well I cited that. We have fallen way behind in math and engineering which are the cornerstones of innovation and scientific progress and WHY we became the world's economic leader. Not to mention that most bachelor's degrees now require a least college algebra which is really calculus-lite.

 

[hossenpepper]

The example in the OP looks like the method my nephew and niece were taught in their primary years (up to 11). It doesn't work, not least because they were getting sums marked as correct when the only correct thing about them was that they'd followed the method! (I was asked to go through their homework with them a few times, and they were coming up with the wrong answers about 50% of the time. They took the papers back, they were marked and graded - 70-80%+. Bs. (That's as is 'bees', not bullsheen. Although...)
The joke of it was, when they went up to secondary school they were expected to do it the 'old' (i.e. proper) way...and of course they didn't know how. I've spent hours with them, trying to show them how simple the basic mathematical functions really can be, once you've come to terms with them (my sister's duff at maths, so it fell to me because I've been known to do maths problems for fun. What're you looking at me like that for? ).
My nephew's just finished compulsory school and has gone to college. He got a C in GCSE Maths, but he's still not too confident in his ability, and it all comes down to the ridiculous, BS way he was taught right at the start. (And woe betide you if you tried teaching them better!)

To address this... the common core here in the US is taught IN ADDITION to the traditional methods. That is a misconception that it replaces all the other methods.

 

[DiO'Bolic]

Common Core is not a mandate? Don’t make me laugh! I been fighting this parsing of words with my daughter's principle these last two weeks. Yes, Common Core is not a mandate in Pennsylvania, BUT the Keystone Exams, necessary to get into high school ARE, and the Keystone Exams ARE aligned with the Pennsylvania Common Core Standards in English literature, Algebra I and biology. So if the schools don’t teach Common Core to the students, their chances of passing the Common Core based Keystone Exams are greatly diminished. So schools are therefore forced to teach Common Core as the primary method. You see if the standards are determine by the state to be substandard for a school district, then the school district comes under control of the state and teachers might be fired... and we just can't have none of that.

Teaching in Pennsylvania has become all about the testing!

 

[Dana Jean]

All I'm getting from this thread is Charlie Brown adult -talk

wahwah wah wah, wah wah wah wah. Wah?

 

[hossenpepper]

Common Core is not a mandate? Don’t make me laugh! I been fighting this parsing of words with my daughter's principle these last two weeks. Yes, Common Core is not a mandate in Pennsylvania, BUT the Keystone Exams, necessary to get into high school ARE, and the Keystone Exams ARE aligned with the Pennsylvania Common Core Standards in English literature, Algebra I and biology. So if the schools don’t teach Common Core to the students, their chances of passing the Common Core based Keystone Exams are greatly diminished. So schools are therefore forced to teach Common Core as the primary method. You see if the standards are determine by the state to be substandard for a school district, then the school district comes under control of the state and teachers might be fired... and we just can't have none of that.

Teaching in Pennsylvania has become all about the testing!

K, again what we've been doing has left us far behind other countries in these subjects so all this standard anti-CC BS conspiracy rhetoric is meaningless. These standards use the stuff that works from the systems in the countries who do lead in these areas and adds it to our traditional one. Even if it was a "mandate" as you say, you are essentially saying that expecting more or better from our schools and kids and ultimately our workforce is a bad thing.

These are an attempt to get us back to the front of the STEM based professions, which BY FAR provide the greatest number of jobs and higher pay. But perhaps that isn't as important as promulgating a conspiracy theory based protest by people that really have no idea what they are talking about.

 

[hossenpepper]

All I'm getting from this thread is Charlie Brown adult -talk

wahwah wah wah, wah wah wah wah. Wah?

Ma'am? Yes ma'am. No, I didn't know that ma'am. Of course I was listening ma'am.

 

[fushingfeef]

When I was young I remember parents complaining about "new math", whatever that was. My kids are learning different techniques and terminology than me with regards to math. I was a calculus ace so none of this is troubling to me, but it's giving my wife fits!

 

[hossenpepper]

Sooooo frustrating! Sorry kiddo, even though dad has an MBA, I just can’t seem to help you with your 8th grade math... Unfortunately Common Core makes no Common Sense to me.

Who the hell thought this math was better, and mandated it needed be taught to the kids?

BTW, I was wondering... is this something one of your kids brought home?

 

[Moderator]

K, again what we've been doing has left us far behind other countries in these subjects so all this standard anti-CC BS conspiracy rhetoric is meaningless. These standards use the stuff that works from the systems in the countries who do lead in these areas and adds it to our traditional one. Even if it was a "mandate" as you say, you are essentially saying that expecting more or better from our schools and kids and ultimately our workforce is a bad thing.

These are an attempt to get us back to the front of the STEM based professions, which BY FAR provide the greatest number of jobs and higher pay. But perhaps that isn't as important as promulgating a conspiracy theory based protest by people that really have no idea what they are talking about.

Are the countries that are exceeding our standards using this method for teaching and if the old way of teaching had resulted in higher achievements then why switch? Wouldn't it be better to take a lesson from their methods instead, for example Finland which has significantly raised their standards since 1970 and moved away from test-based outcomes. It's a long article but this explains how they've gone from one of the worst internationally to one of the best systems of education.

 

[DiO'Bolic]

BTW, I was wondering... is this something one of your kids brought home?

Not this example (it's from a recent article I read on Common Core), but it is a good example of what she deals with. I have been having a hell of a time trying to help my youngest with her math textbook homework. Her standard math test scores are down this year and the school is mandating she take remedial courses. Her math testing has always been high until they started with Common Core. I am fighting with them about having to go to dummy class because she went from "Advanced" to "Proficient" based on Common Core standards. The teacher last year couldn't teach it (and has subsequently been resigned from teaching math classes), my daughter didn't understand some of it, and we couldn't help her.

 

[hossenpepper]

Are the countries that are exceeding our standards using this method for teaching and if the old way of teaching had resulted in higher achievements then why switch? Wouldn't it be better to take a lesson from their methods instead, for example Finland which has significantly raised their standards since 1970 and moved away from test-based outcomes. It's a long article but this explains how they've gone from one of the worst internationally to one of the best systems of education.

What's actually more interesting is that in the common core studies that lead to the curriculum and in the standards instruction to educators, they stress that "teaching to the test" is the least effective way to up test scores.

But yes the standards were developed by studying the countries where they score much higher than us (BTW in science and math, we now rank 52nd worldwide) and adopting some of those methods. This stuff is what is expected in colleges here now and is now on the SAT and ACT tests. The mandated testing is also a big thing, but that isn't part of common core. It doesn't mandate testing. No Child Left Behind is what mandates the testing to graduate certain grade levels. Common core is simply an update to some of the curriculum and is primarily the method applied to the same set of standard knowledge we've decided kids should have to productive members of society.

It's also worth mentioning that testing is not some wild idea. Every class includes this doesn't it? Testing is where you show what you've learned. The main problem with testing is most kids aren't taught how to test properly. Not just on standardized testing, but any tests. My oldest kid was a great worker and had good homework grades, but her testing was awful. I used some of the techniques I learned as a technical instructor to help people pass professional certifications and imparted them to her. In a fairly short period of time, she upped her testing scores significantly. Some of these same applications of learning and approaching content are included in common core techniques. So I've seen them work for professionals, myself and my kids.

 

[hossenpepper]

Not this example (it's from a recent article I read on Common Core), but it is a good example of what she deals with. I have been having a hell of a time trying to help my youngest with her math textbook homework. Her standard math test scores are down this year and the school is mandating she take remedial courses. Her math testing has always been high until they started with Common Core. I am fighting with them about having to go to dummy class because she went from "Advanced" to "Proficient" based on Common Core standards. The teacher last year couldn't teach it (and has subsequently been resigned from teaching math classes), my daughter didn't understand some of it, and we couldn't help her.

And that is a valid concern and I experienced it myself. The issue is that parents now may not be plugging in enough and this is daunting from a point of zero knowledge. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work. Once I learned it and understood WHY we are moving to it, it makes a lot of sense. But honestly, my first reaction was also "What the hell are they ding in that school? This is voodoo!" But it truly is to help our kids' futures and can if given proper support.

 

[Moderator]

What's actually more interesting is that in the common core studies that lead to the curriculum and in the standards instruction to educators, they stress that "teaching to the test" is the least effective way to up test scores.

But yes the standards were developed by studying the countries where they score much higher than us (BTW in science and math, we now rank 52nd worldwide) and adopting some of those methods. This stuff is what is expected in colleges here now and is now on the SAT and ACT tests. The mandated testing is also a big thing, but that isn't part of common core. It doesn't mandate testing. No Child Left Behind is what mandates the testing to graduate certain grade levels. Common core is simply an update to some of the curriculum and is primarily the method applied to the same set of standard knowledge we've decided kids should have to productive members of society.

It's also worth mentioning that testing is not some wild idea. Every class includes this doesn't it? Testing is where you show what you've learned. The main problem with testing is most kids aren't taught how to test properly. Not just on standardized testing, but any tests. My oldest kid was a great worker and had good homework grades, but her testing was awful. I used some of the techniques I learned as a technical instructor to help people pass professional certifications and imparted them to her. In a fairly short period of time, she upped her testing scores significantly. Some of these same applications of learning and approaching content are included in common core techniques. So I've seen them work for professionals, myself and my kids.

I would agree with the theory of common core being that all students should have a certain level of expertise in subjects, particularly math and English, and that subjects such as history should not be allowed to use revisionist text, but how that is taught should be left to local school districts which I think is what you were saying earlier. It's more difficult in a country as large and diverse as ours to have a one fits all curriculum but understanding that these same students may very likely be applying to secondary education in another state and could be penalized if they don't have the same basic fundamentals requires having that common core. I just don't agree with math being taught like this for the fundamentals rather than how they used to do it and think there must be a better way to introduce the problem solving AFTER kids have the fundamentals under their belt and are comfortable with them.

 

[DiO'Bolic]

I would agree with the theory of common core being that all students should have a certain level of expertise in subjects, particularly math and English, and that subjects such as history should not be allowed to use revisionist text, but how that is taught should be left to local school districts which I think is what you were saying earlier. It's more difficult in a country as large and diverse as ours to have a one fits all curriculum but understanding that these same students may very likely be applying to secondary education in another state and could be penalized if they don't have the same basic fundamentals requires having that common core. I just don't agree with math being taught like this for the fundamentals rather than how they used to do it and think there must be a better way to introduce the problem solving AFTER kids have the fundamentals under their belt and are comfortable with them.

Normally I'd have a little fun with this... about agreeing with you and hell freezing over. But it’s a serious subject and that was just one damn fine excellent post. Period!

 

[Moderator]

Normally I'd have a little fun with this... about agreeing with you and hell freezing over. But it’s a serious subject and that was just one damn fine excellent post. Period!

Thank you.