Question regarding "It" *SPOILERS*

  • This message board permanently closed on June 30th, 2020 at 4PM EDT and is no longer accepting new members.

Mr. Gray Robert

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2015
61
178
Dallas, Texas
You have to remember that Pennywise (or simply It) existed as a unique monster, however massive, within Derry's level of the Tower. That monster was tied to a specific reality. The force (the outside evil) sprang from the Deadlights, which are outside of everything else. In short, the Deadlights continue to twinkle and pulse in unending madness, but on the level of the Tower in which Derry resides, the unique avatar of that energy is dead. You have to understand that we are talking metaphysics here. What is more we are talking cosmology and "fhysics," i.e. fiction-physics here. I will, for the sake of simplicity, refer to It as Pennywise for the rest of this post to avoid any confusion with my using it as the pronoun versus It the monster.

I want you to think back to the Ritual of Chüd. When Pennywise is taking Bill's essense (soul) toward the Deadlights, it is to cast him forever outside and remove the threat Bill represents. There is, without a doubt, a bit of vindictiveness there too. Pennywise taunts and talks to Bill as they hurtle through the darkness. Pennywise comments that they might as well talk "while they still can" because the closer Pennywise gets to the Deadlights, the more unintelligible it becomes. This is because as Pennywise returns to the source, it is somewhat absorbed back into the whole. Sentience as we know it is transformed into madness. This seems to imply that the sentient thought, motivations, and even character of Pennywise were born (or reflected) by the level of the Tower to which it came. In a way Pennywise does not exist as a unique entity within the Deadlights. Pennywise only exists when that energy manifested itself on that level of the Tower, i.e. in Derry. It would appear that the great barrier that holds the Deadlights outside has small holes through which the Deadlights pour out. That light doesn't belong. It has no form of its own. It has no real logic of its own. It is madness. It is wrong. It is outside evil. What does light do? It reflects off things. Pennywise, at least as we understand him, was born of two titanic forces, the Deadlights and the Tower upon which that light fell.

This theory, and as it is my own conjecture I can call it nothing else, seems to work with the cosmology that is revealed directly within the book itself. We get a brief glimpse into the mind of Pennywise. This cosmic force of unmaking is enormous beyond the scope of human imagination. Pennywise believes itself to be one of only two cosmic beings (itself and the Turtle). Sometimes Pennywise suspects (and both enraged and frightened by the thought) that there might be another being, i.e. the Other. In short, if my theory is true, some of the Deadlights pass the barrier and hurtle toward a level of the Tower (reality) and leaves the absolute insanity behind. It perceives itself in relation to everything else. It gains a personality of a sort, however self centered and evil. This creature "thinks therefore it is" as opposed to simply being a cosmic amoeba of evil outside energy without a driving mind behind it. This new creature evolves and is further defined by its stay in Derry. It takes on constant forms, not having any of its own, from the minds and notions of people it feeds upon. While it is somewhat horrific to consider, the full shape and style of Pennywise's evil comes from us. It eats people because we think it is supposed to do so. The nature of its cruelty is a reflection of our own. It is the ultimate outsider and yet the application of its evil is merely a mimicry of our own. It cannot create, only copy. Mostly it just destroys because it is easier to destroy than create. Most frightening of all, Pennywise by its long attendance in reality, is taking on the slow but sure ability to create. It has taken countless centuries but it has finally come due. Pennywise will become both mother and father to a brood. This too, I would argue, it got from us. Light reflects and as we reproduce and grow, Pennywise has through its ability to mimic managed the feat as well.

From a metaphysical point of view, the Losers sealed that specific breach from the Deadlights to their level of the Tower when they killed Pennywise. That isn't to say that living, outside evil won't ooze in again, but that unique, specific manifestation is forever lost. This is because it was like any of us, created and colored by reality in which it came into being and the time it spent there. Pennywise didn't exist as Pennywise in the Deadlights and thus Pennywise can't just be replicated by the Deadlights again. The Deadlights needs us to build the perfect beast. Times change and should that light fall upon us again, it a very different monster will arise.
WOW! Just WOW!! :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neesy and Ebdim9th

Aloysius Nell

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2014
309
1,009
51
If 'Pennywise' has no substance/evil but what we give him, what about his arrival in a spaceship long before human beings were around to imagine such a form?

A little late to this party, but...

I always thought, even on my first reading as a high school junior, that the spaceship was a metaphor. Just as the spider wasn't REALLY what IT looked like, but merely the closest representation their minds could encompass. If you'll recall, the spider was a different sort of form than the ones they had dealt with previously; it was the spider because...it was the spider. The eye, the mummy, the leper, etc., all were visible by the Losers because ONE of them saw it that way. IT provided the spider for them to see; the spaceship was the same. Knowing their minds, interests, and level of knowledge, IT picked the one image that would demonstrate the idea, "Hey! I'm completely different from you, in every way imaginable!"

After all, in 1958 there was endless speculation about life on other worlds, and what it would be like. It's a fascination that has never gone away, but arguably was never stronger than it was in the 50s and 60s.
 

sam peebles

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2008
2,080
509
Massachusetts
Makes sense to me, Aloysius. Why would It need to take a spaceship in order to travel to Earth? I always pictured it more like a meteorite or asteroid myself, but like you say, the 50's were in the midst of UFO hysteria, and maybe that's the only way the Losers' minds could understand what they were seeing in the smoke. Their impression is automatically based on the familiar cheesy science fiction films they watch.
 

Ebdim9th

Dressing the Gothic interval in tritones
Jul 1, 2009
6,137
22,104
I got the impression that it was never something they saw or knew about but a prelude-description of how 'IT' came to be on Earth millions of years ago... I'd have to reread it to match your perspective to the story....
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neesy

Robert Gray

Well-Known Member
I got the impression that it was never something they saw or knew about but a prelude-description of how 'IT' came to be on Earth millions of years ago... I'd have to reread it to match your perspective to the story....


It was a vision granted to two of the Losers in the so-called "Smoke Hole"... although there is room for speculation as to whether they were actually transported to the past to see the event for themselves. I think that regardless of their actually being there or simply seeing it through a mystic vision, the effects of the Deadlights would remain the same. They would perceive things only within the limits their own minds could allow. Richie and Mike saw it together and at first saw it slightly differently but when they discussed it together they were able to understand it was neither (really) thing they saw. I think this is very telling as it falls in line with other experiences the Losers had with different incarnations of It (consider the Clown versus the Werewolf when Richie and Bill were running from the monster). Pennywise is the embodiment of "Outside Evil" for the purposes of the story, and is alien from everything. The creature isn't just extraterrestrial it is from outside all reality/creation. In theory, had the other Losers gotten the vision too, it is likely some of them might have seen the coming of Pennywise slightly different also. However, the shared knowledge of the monster (as we saw with other encounters) allows them to share their perceptions and thus any of them can see it as the others do.
 
Bob I'd like your input on the connection of the deadlights and Revival.

Also I think evil was still rubbing off on people
when Frank Dunning went after his family. That was way past the initial injury of It; but we know the creature wasn't really dead.
A post 1985 look at Derry would tell us more about whether IT was completely killed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neesy

Robert Gray

Well-Known Member
Bob I'd like your input on the connection of the deadlights and Revival.

Also I think evil was still rubbing off on people
when Frank Dunning went after his family. That was way past the initial injury of It; but we know the creature wasn't really dead.
A post 1985 look at Derry would tell us more about whether IT was completely killed.


Heh. I'm saving Revival for this coming month. As I haven't read it yet, I can't talk about it and have to work hard to avoid any discussions of it so I don't see any spoilers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neesy

Neesy

#1 fan (Annie Wilkes cousin) 1st cousin Mom's side
May 24, 2012
61,289
239,271
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Heh. I'm saving Revival for this coming month. As I haven't read it yet, I can't talk about it and have to work hard to avoid any discussions of it so I don't see any spoilers.
Not a bad book - I have to get around to starting "Finders Keepers" still!

we_all_float_down_here_by_jhuertajr-d5ckdbg.jpg


Don't go for a walk after dark Robert Gray :icon_eek::confused:
 

Doc Creed

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2015
17,221
82,822
47
United States
Not a bad book - I have to get around to starting "Finders Keepers" still!

we_all_float_down_here_by_jhuertajr-d5ckdbg.jpg


Don't go for a walk after dark Robert Gray :icon_eek::confused:
Me too. I usually buy hardcovers the day he releases them but being unemployed has put a crimp in that little red wagon, lol. Maybe the paperback. I can't wait to read it and the follow up in June.
 

Arkay Lynchpin

Preserve wildlife; pickle a squirrel.
Dec 4, 2015
1,648
8,854
56
Melbourne, Australia
Now, all that being said, there is still a chance some of the spawn of It escaped into the darkness. There is (in my opinion) a thinny under Derry.
It could be some of those spawn escaped into other levels of the Tower and that we have even seen them as lesser shadows, reflections of their parent monster. It could be that one (or more) of them still reside beneath Derry. The brood that the great black spirit spider begat came in all sizes, but most were little horrors.

It would be interesting if SK could introduce a brood brother/sister of Mordred Deschain in a similarly twisted monster novel (aren't all American spiders social?)
 

raperm

Active Member
Aug 22, 2016
28
112
53
Kind of a late reply, but I'm still snooping around the board and reading the topics.

When I first read the book, I figured that the "vision" Richie and Mike had was just that; a vision, likely sent by the Turtle (or the Other) to show them what they were up against; specifically, that It wasn't from this world, and had been around a LONG time.

But on a second read, I noticed that there were very clear indications that it was NOT just a vision; that they had actually been sent back in time. Couple of things pretty strongly support that. First, when the other Losers try to get them out of the hole, they say that both sounded "far away", and that at first they couldn't see/find them. That could be interpreted as stress and the smoke. But what's harder to dismiss is that both Mike and Richie fell in their "vision" and got scraped up or tore holes in their jeans. Those holes had not been there before; Richie even says his were brand-new, and that his mom was going to kill him for tearing up the knees like that. So it's possible that the Turtle (or the Other) literally sent them back to see It arrive, and it wasn't just a vision.

I never really thought about it arriving in a space ship, though; I just figured that's how the kids interpreted it. I always assumed that it just sort of, well, "arrived", and that all the smoke, fire, lightning and other effects were due to the physical split in our dimension when It forced it's way through. Then again, it does say it came from outer space and was the last survivor of a dying planet; assuming it wasn't lying, maybe it really DID come from space.
 

Doc Creed

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2015
17,221
82,822
47
United States
What does everyone make of the fact that none of the Losers Club ever had children? I believe this is discussed when the adult Losers meet at the Jade Orient but they never arrive at a definite reasoning. Did they? Interesting to note that their childhood hangout was called The Barrens, too. I feel it's almost as if confronting Pennywise (IT) in the sewers in 1958 was a type of cancer/radiation that impaired them...making them "barren".
However, the six Losers that actually left Derry became very successful.
Still, I am curious if anyone remembers why they didn't have children. Is it a dark, twisted Peter Pan motif? Doesn't Pennywise promise his victims "you'll never have to grow up?". I'm also reminded of the line in Christine where it says 'as soon as you have kids you see your own tombstone' (paraphrasing).
I'm thinking out loud here and getting ready to read IT in September. I'd like to hear what you think.