Question regarding "It" *SPOILERS*

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Walter Oobleck

keeps coming back...or going, and going, and going
Mar 6, 2013
11,749
34,798
What does everyone make of the fact that none of the Losers Club ever had children? I believe this is discussed when the adult Losers meet at the Jade Orient but they never arrive at a definite reasoning. Did they? Interesting to note that their childhood hangout was called The Barrens, too. I feel it's almost as if confronting Pennywise (IT) in the sewers in 1958 was a type of cancer/radiation that impaired them...making them "barren".
However, the six Losers that actually left Derry became very successful.
Still, I am curious if anyone remembers why they didn't have children. Is it a dark, twisted Peter Pan motif? Doesn't Pennywise promise his victims "you'll never have to grow up?". I'm also reminded of the line in Christine where it says 'as soon as you have kids you see your own tombstone' (paraphrasing).
I'm thinking out loud here and getting ready to read IT in September. I'd like to hear what you think.
I came away from the story with the idea that due to their childhood they did not have children. Call it something, what's the word? psychoschematic? something like that. The mind, perhaps something unconscious. Not necessarily because of the trauma, maybe too because of the good times...maybe the idea of having children would have done something to them, consciously or unconsciously. Don't recall a reason, only that one of them remarked on the fact. Was it Mike? Something to think about. I'm not sure.
 

raperm

Active Member
Aug 22, 2016
25
95
48
I always lumped it in with the "magic" that held them together and prepare them to come back. No kids; Richie's vasectomy even reversed itself. All were successful, exceptionally so (save Mike, of course). All completely forgot their chokehold. They were affected in unexplainable ways after they fought It the first time, presumably because whatever was working through them wanted it that way. Not sure why, at least with al, of that. The kid thing I get; they'd be far less likely to return if they had children to think about. Memory loss was a safety switch. If they remembered to much they might not survive to return. Success? Dunno on that one.
 

Robert Gray

Well-Known Member
I'm going to go a step harsher. The monster that resides beneath Derry isn't responsible for the fact that none of the Losers have children. It could care less. In fact, I suspect Pennywise would love nothing better than to hurt those that hurt it by devouring their children first before killing them. That isn't an option because something else is intervening in subtle ways. You must remember that God or Gan or whomever/whatever sits on the top floor of the Tower helps those that help themselves. This force for good, the light, doesn't intervene directly. There are rules which it has created and follows. The why of these rules is beyond us mere mortals but order versus chaos is a thing. In any event, it is this same force which aids (however slightly and within the rules) the Losers as children which also watches over them as adults. It is this force which denies them children. It is this force which puts harsh things in motion for a greater good. I will explain why.

Just as Pennywise knows the reckoning will one day come, and the Losers will return or be called back, so does the force which helped them. Since labels are uncomfortable when we are dealing with cosmic things we don't understand, I shall use the term from the book, i.e. the Other. This force, which is clearly good (if harsh), knows that to fight Pennywise as adults, the Losers must maintain their connection (however distant) with childhood. My argument, and it is open to debate, is that once you have children of your own... it is a rite of passage... a crossing of the Rubicon... the point at which you are (for most good people at least) irrevocably an adult. Good people, those that stand, make their choices by what is right for their children and have to be responsible in ways which are mutually exclusive from the mindset of a child. I'm not making value statements here, merely commenting on how the world changes for parents (at least those who are good people who care about their children). You just don't see the world the same way. I submit that had any of the Losers had children, they most certainly would not have either come back to Derry setting that responsibility aside, or even if they came they would not have been able to reconnect to the children they had been. That bridge would have been burned. Good people still, but not longer able to cross back into the mind of childhood to do battle.

God/Gan/Tower works in mysterious ways. It also works in painful ways. I've approached this subject before, but it clear that the Other was working to get rid of the horrible force that is Pennywise for a long time (within the rules). There needed to be just the right kind of people (the Losers) who stand and be counted. God/Gan/Tower can help them as long as they help themselves. This force for good has to be patient (and it was). There is also a ruthlessness in the approach. Consider Georgie; what/who made sure that he would be in exactly the right spot and right time to encounter Pennywise? Why was Georgie important? Without Georgie, Big Bill wouldn't have had the perfect nudge to become the anchor of the Losers. The dominoes are starting to fall. Something had to push the first one. There was turtle imagery which transfixed Georgie in the basement. It was an odd moment and seemingly unrelated to larger issues, but there nonetheless. Horrible as it sounds, and odd series of events had to create the perfect timing for Big Bill's little brother to be there at the right time and place to be killed. Moreover, some adamant force intervened to keep the Losers childless despite best efforts until their job was done. I submit the force is one and the same. The book posits a series of cosmic ideas which are difficult but also ring true:

1. There is a force greater than ourselves which will help us and moves the world in the right direction.
2. We do have choice as individuals and those choices decide if the world continues or falls.
3. That force which is greater than ourselves will help those who helps themselves, i.e. those that choose the light.

We are talking about that long debated problem of predestination versus free will. The novel (as do many of Sai King's works) puts forward the notion that the two are not mutually exclusive. It puts forward the idea that God/Gan/Tower does decide much of what happens in our lives, but that ultimately the picture is completed by people (at least some people) making choices. From our perspective, the force that is the Other is titanic and monstrous in a way not unlike Pennywise. This force allows little children to be devoured by monsters; it even puts some children in that monster's path. We cannot understand this methodology because we are inside the picture, we do not see the whole picture as this Other must certainly see it. We accept on faith or instinct that the Other does know what it is doing. We understand the harshness, or at least we try to understand it to keep the faith. We are talking about meaning, that order from chaos that I spoke of before. Why do bad things happen to good people? God/Gan/Tower must have a reason.
 

Nomik

Carry on
Jun 19, 2016
3,973
22,551
43
Derry, NH
I'm going to go a step harsher. The monster that resides beneath Derry isn't responsible for the fact that none of the Losers have children. It could care less. In fact, I suspect Pennywise would love nothing better than to hurt those that hurt it by devouring their children first before killing them. That isn't an option because something else is intervening in subtle ways. You must remember that God or Gan or whomever/whatever sits on the top floor of the Tower helps those that help themselves. This force for good, the light, doesn't intervene directly. There are rules which it has created and follows. The why of these rules is beyond us mere mortals but order versus chaos is a thing. In any event, it is this same force which aids (however slightly and within the rules) the Losers as children which also watches over them as adults. It is this force which denies them children. It is this force which puts harsh things in motion for a greater good. I will explain why.

Just as Pennywise knows the reckoning will one day come, and the Losers will return or be called back, so does the force which helped them. Since labels are uncomfortable when we are dealing with cosmic things we don't understand, I shall use the term from the book, i.e. the Other. This force, which is clearly good (if harsh), knows that to fight Pennywise as adults, the Losers must maintain their connection (however distant) with childhood. My argument, and it is open to debate, is that once you have children of your own... it is a rite of passage... a crossing of the Rubicon... the point at which you are (for most good people at least) irrevocably an adult. Good people, those that stand, make their choices by what is right for their children and have to be responsible in ways which are mutually exclusive from the mindset of a child. I'm not making value statements here, merely commenting on how the world changes for parents (at least those who are good people who care about their children). You just don't see the world the same way. I submit that had any of the Losers had children, they most certainly would not have either come back to Derry setting that responsibility aside, or even if they came they would not have been able to reconnect to the children they had been. That bridge would have been burned. Good people still, but not longer able to cross back into the mind of childhood to do battle.

God/Gan/Tower works in mysterious ways. It also works in painful ways. I've approached this subject before, but it clear that the Other was working to get rid of the horrible force that is Pennywise for a long time (within the rules). There needed to be just the right kind of people (the Losers) who stand and be counted. God/Gan/Tower can help them as long as they help themselves. This force for good has to be patient (and it was). There is also a ruthlessness in the approach. Consider Georgie; what/who made sure that he would be in exactly the right spot and right time to encounter Pennywise? Why was Georgie important? Without Georgie, Big Bill wouldn't have had the perfect nudge to become the anchor of the Losers. The dominoes are starting to fall. Something had to push the first one. There was turtle imagery which transfixed Georgie in the basement. It was an odd moment and seemingly unrelated to larger issues, but there nonetheless. Horrible as it sounds, and odd series of events had to create the perfect timing for Big Bill's little brother to be there at the right time and place to be killed. Moreover, some adamant force intervened to keep the Losers childless despite best efforts until their job was done. I submit the force is one and the same. The book posits a series of cosmic ideas which are difficult but also ring true:

1. There is a force greater than ourselves which will help us and moves the world in the right direction.
2. We do have choice as individuals and those choices decide if the world continues or falls.
3. That force which is greater than ourselves will help those who helps themselves, i.e. those that choose the light.

We are talking about that long debated problem of predestination versus free will. The novel (as do many of Sai King's works) puts forward the notion that the two are not mutually exclusive. It puts forward the idea that God/Gan/Tower does decide much of what happens in our lives, but that ultimately the picture is completed by people (at least some people) making choices. From our perspective, the force that is the Other is titanic and monstrous in a way not unlike Pennywise. This force allows little children to be devoured by monsters; it even puts some children in that monster's path. We cannot understand this methodology because we are inside the picture, we do not see the whole picture as this Other must certainly see it. We accept on faith or instinct that the Other does know what it is doing. We understand the harshness, or at least we try to understand it to keep the faith. We are talking about meaning, that order from chaos that I spoke of before. Why do bad things happen to good people? God/Gan/Tower must have a reason.
I beg to differ. Robert struck a few philosophical chords by pushing the metaphor to the best of his ability (pretty darn good, by the way) and making inferences.
Since you aptly pointed out - we are talking about meaning, making order out of chaos, existential concept.
Categorically pigeonholing any character into good or bad does not fit. I speak from experience; I am from Derry (and how many times must I reiterate to give myself credibility) I am a member of the losers club.
You are referring to the "force" - Pennywise and the pantheistic God, as though they were the Justice card in a Tarot Deck.
Look, without getting into specifics of my life or those of my friends- most of whom are childless, I am a mother and I'm not a good person by some standards. Now, I know what's in my heart but I also know that you can select choice or destiny.
There is more to it than you realize (the antecedent for "it" was making order out of chaos) Spiritually, if you look at the macrocosm, eight concepts connect. I'm too tired to continue this thought right now. Plus, it's like sharing a secret.
 
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