Could IT have been in Bill's basement just prior to George's death

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Eliczo

New Member
Apr 15, 2017
2
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#1
I've just started listening to the audiobook and its gotten to the bit where George goes into his house's cellar to get the parafin, the way his fears are described I just realised (after reading the book several times) that IT may have been down there or at least his presence to cause George to be afraid of something very similar to IT

What do you think?
 

recitador

Speed Reader
Sep 3, 2016
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#3
I've just started listening to the audiobook and its gotten to the bit where George goes into his house's cellar to get the parafin, the way his fears are described I just realised (after reading the book several times) that IT may have been down there or at least his presence to cause George to be afraid of something very similar to IT

What do you think?
i think it was more of a general fear that kids have of dark and spooky basements/cellars. It wasn't averse to snatching kids right out of their houses so i think ole george would've been toast right then and there. but it was definitely a good section to draw some imagery of the fears kids tend to have and tie them in a bit later when the boogeyman really did show up
 
Apr 4, 2017
6
13
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#6
i think it was more of a general fear that kids have of dark and spooky basements/cellars. It wasn't averse to snatching kids right out of their houses so i think ole george would've been toast right then and there. but it was definitely a good section to draw some imagery of the fears kids tend to have and tie them in a bit later when the boogeyman really did show up
And yet...
...It was perfectly willing to give Bill dimension-severing papercuts that might have killed him in Georgie's bedroom while Richie Tozier was sitting right next to him, and while his mother was just downstairs.

Just something to consider. I don't think the answer really matters much. What does each interpretation buy the story for you?
 

recitador

Speed Reader
Sep 3, 2016
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#7
And yet...
...It was perfectly willing to give Bill dimension-severing papercuts that might have killed him in Georgie's bedroom while Richie Tozier was sitting right next to him, and while his mother was just downstairs.

Just something to consider. I don't think the answer really matters much. What does each interpretation buy the story for you?
That is a fair point. Although the losers club was possibly afforded a measure of protection thanks to the force gathering them together. I don't think even It fully realized the other force directing thise events. Maybe It's urge to toy with the losers club rather than straight up kill them was not entirely of It's own making
 

skimom2

Just moseyin' through...
Oct 9, 2013
15,671
91,980
USA
#8
I dunno...I think it is possible, in a general sense. Basements are mighty low and IT travelled through sewer lines, so, yeah. Georgie's fears (as well as those of a jillion other kids who are scared of basements) might be related. IT didn't die, you know, and sewers are everywhere so... ;)
 
#9
There are a couple of issues here which I would like to address. The first is whether or not the Losers were afforded protection. I disagree. The rules by which the Other plays are different than It. God helps those that help themselves. I suspect the Other has been subtle and waiting a long time (and likely has been there as others chose to "stand" before) for the Losers. In short, there had to be the right people, at the right time, and they had to do certain things themselves. It is worth mentioning that:

Mike Hanlon didn't feel the push and extra strength throwing rocks at the bird from his deadend smokestack until he basically called out for divine help. There are rules. The other Losers survived their encounters by luck, smarts, or simple desperation. I do believe the Other was at work, but I don't think it was doing anymore than subtle moves to put the right people in each other's way. They have to do the rest themselves.

There are some very scary and unsettling ramifications of this line of reasoning which I will come back to last. Bill himself thinks about the issue too, although not to the depth that I'm going to go. Let's shift gears for a moment and go to the notion about It being in the basement. I don't think so. I agree with another poster that the fear of that basement was just the normal fear that many kids feel. In fact, we know that Bill's brother had felt it many times in the past. If It had been down there, it would likely have attempted to lure him in further (a favorite trick) so that escape was impossible. Think of Stan at the Standpipe.

That being said, I do think there was something going on in the cellar, and that is where we get cosmic and uncomfortable. Remember what I said about subtle nudges to put the right people in the path of other people (or things)? Big Bill turns out to be the leader, the Other's Champion if you will. There has to be motivation, and without the death of his brother, would Bill have been that passionate and driven? Doubtful. So for It to face the Losers who are welded together by the leadership of Big Bill, Georgie has to die. It certainly isn't making that calculation. That only leaves the Other. I can further prove this point, i.e. that Georgie being in the right place at the right time wasn't random. It wasn't an accident. Consider:

Georgie goes to get the wax to seal the boat. Normally he would have run down, grabbed it and run out. He hates the basement. Instead, he gets transfixed and stares at the image of a turtle for a long moment, just how long we aren't sure. But apply the Butterfly Effect to it. Without that delay, long enough that Bill asked Georgie if he died down there, it is unlikely that Bill's brother would have been at the right place at the right time. Pennywise is a lazy hunter and prefers to grab things that fall into his lap. Georgie did that. So without that exact delay, consider how unlikely it would have been for Georgie to be at the right intersection at the right time to cross paths with the Clown, to lose his boat down, and so it follows. Think of the chain of events. Think of the awesome patience and calculation. Think of the cold blooded counting of the cost. The ramifications become very clear.

We know for a fact, as it is written in the book that this Other force is there and influencing events in a subtle, "the Lord helps those who help themselves" sort of way. That means it either started taking a hand later after the Losers gathered, i.e. taking an interest in them, or it was taking a hand from the very start (my argument). For all the gears to line up, the first domino to fall had to be Georgie. So, what was in the basement? It had to be the Other, not Pennywise.
 
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mjs9153

Peripherally known member..
Nov 21, 2014
3,288
20,434
#11
I wonder if he is right,because I think It was all of Derry..It diffused all over the town,bits and pieces here there and everywhere,but especially in the drains and sewers..and when It saw its chance during its feeding cycles,like when a kid was alone and vulnerable,Its parts would draw together and begin to coalesce and transform into the fear of the child..
 

John13

Active Member
Sep 25, 2016
39
149
32
#12
....welcome to you!....and I think recitador has it right...
Was he? From what i understood IT has appeared in front of all people in Derry but people dont want to talk about it. And IT appears when it senses negative emotions like fear. This means that IT has a presence all over the city but IT rearly kills when you see IT. I dont remember details about the first chapter but i remember George seeing something like a turtle which sounds very odd and i do believe there is a connection with the turtle fighting IT..
 

John13

Active Member
Sep 25, 2016
39
149
32
#13
I wonder if he is right,because I think It was all of Derry..It diffused all over the town,bits and pieces here there and everywhere,but especially in the drains and sewers..and when It saw its chance during its feeding cycles,like when a kid was alone and vulnerable,Its parts would draw together and begin to coalesce and transform into the fear of the child..
I think that fear comes first. In the majority of IT attacks the victim is scared first and that "unlocks" IT. For example in Georges case he puts his hand in the shewers and he is afraid of something poping up
 

GNTLGNT

The idiot is IN
Jun 15, 2007
82,541
319,900
57
Cambridge, Ohio
#14
Was he? From what i understood IT has appeared in front of all people in Derry but people dont want to talk about it. And IT appears when it senses negative emotions like fear. This means that IT has a presence all over the city but IT rearly kills when you see IT. I dont remember details about the first chapter but i remember George seeing something like a turtle which sounds very odd and i do believe there is a connection with the turtle fighting IT..
....just my opinion man....you do you.....
 

recitador

Speed Reader
Sep 3, 2016
1,704
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#15
Was he? From what i understood IT has appeared in front of all people in Derry but people dont want to talk about it. And IT appears when it senses negative emotions like fear. This means that IT has a presence all over the city but IT rearly kills when you see IT. I dont remember details about the first chapter but i remember George seeing something like a turtle which sounds very odd and i do believe there is a connection with the turtle fighting IT..
some people in Derry are aware something is going on. some have even seen some weird/scary stuff. It has by no means appeared in front of everyone in Derry. It also doesn't need fear to "unlock" and appear. It can go after whoever It feels like, and what they're feeling at the time isn't necessarily relevant. that doesn't mean It isn't somehow attracted to someone feeling fear, but by no means does it have to come first. It's capable of scaring the crap out of someone without needing them to be primed, It can read minds and find people's fears, even the ones they aren't conscious of (mike's bird being an example, based off something that happened to him as a small child which he doesn't really remember).

george staring at the turtle on the container of wax is interesting, but might lend itself more towards robert gray's theory than It being present. as for the sewer where his boat was, he barely had time to form any fear before Pennywise popped up. he just looked in and Pennywise appeared straightaway. he wasn't reaching in before that.
 

John13

Active Member
Sep 25, 2016
39
149
32
#17
some people in Derry are aware something is going on. some have even seen some weird/scary stuff. It has by no means appeared in front of everyone in Derry. It also doesn't need fear to "unlock" and appear. It can go after whoever It feels like, and what they're feeling at the time isn't necessarily relevant. that doesn't mean It isn't somehow attracted to someone feeling fear, but by no means does it have to come first. It's capable of scaring the crap out of someone without needing them to be primed, It can read minds and find people's fears, even the ones they aren't conscious of (mike's bird being an example, based off something that happened to him as a small child which he doesn't really remember).

george staring at the turtle on the container of wax is interesting, but might lend itself more towards robert gray's theory than It being present. as for the sewer where his boat was, he barely had time to form any fear before Pennywise popped up. he just looked in and Pennywise appeared straightaway. he wasn't reaching in before that.

To be honest IT as a villain that Stephen King crafted is something ambiguous. Its cannot easily be explained and you cannot definetely understand its powers. But what i do understand is that it is attracted by fear and other extreme emotions. Study all cases IT appears and you will see that IT almost always appears after the victim is feared for some reason. I think Mike mentions that possibility in one of the interludes.
The problem with your theory that if IT appears whenever it wants then why it doesnt appears constantly in front these chidren? Me thinks that something "unlocks" It's appearance and it has to do with the pcycology of the victims
 
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recitador

Speed Reader
Sep 3, 2016
1,704
7,947
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#18
To be honest IT as a villain that Stephen King crafted is something ambiguous. Its cannot easily be explained and you cannot definetely understand its powers. But what i do understand is that it is attracted by fear and other extreme emotions. Study all cases IT appears and you will see that IT almost always appears after the victim is feared for some reason. I think Mike mentions that possibility in one of the interludes.
The problem with your theory that if IT appears whenever it wants then why it doesnt appears constantly in front these chidren? Me thinks that something "unlocks" It's appearance and it has to do with the pcycology of the victims
Because It doesn't take them seriously enough as a threat until it's too late. The notion that a super powerful shape shifter who is probably millons of years old (based on the smoke hole vision), who can read minds and do all sorts of other crazy things being somehow caged until someone happens to be nervous or frightened is a bit ridiculous. As to why It doesn't simply kill the children or constantly appear to them, well, the same answer applies to all books, movies and other forms of entertainment: it would make for a very short and unsatisfying story.
 
#19
The creature is not caged, nor is it summoned by someone feeling fear. While I find the theorizing interesting, it isn't supported by the text. Pennywise (or It if you prefer) is an apex predator. It rarely actively hunts, but waits for prey to fall into its lap. The image of it as a spider was meaningful because it hunts very much like a spider and the town of Derry has a vast web overlaid it. When a potential victim walks into one of its places (like Neibolt) or just happens to run into the monster, bad luck.

I can illustrate this simply enough by discussing encounters several of the Losers had with It. As an apex predator, and a lazy one at that, the monster takes the low hanging fruit. It normally doesn't concern itself too much with those that get away because another will come along. It does not pursue Ben that far as the mummy. It likewise only chases Eddie so far before blowing him off. Only when the Losers truly hurt it, does it start to take things personal. More to the point, the monster has limitations in our world. To be physical it is limited by the physical. Consider Neibolt Street again. The monster doesn't appear for the shadows of the basement. It explodes out of toilet because that is how it travels, i.e. through the sewers. Think of Neibolt as one of those main strands of a spider's web. When people go there, the creature senses it (same as many places around Derry) and will head that way. More to the point, if you don't trust me you can go to the section of the book where the Losers go to Neibolt and reread that chapter. Bill thinks and talks about how that location is just one of a few through which it comes out. Likewise, you will see there is a pattern both in the 50s and 80s of where children vanish or are taken. The monster has favorite watering holes at which it hunts.

Pennywise isn't summoned by fear. It simply likes the taste of fear in the victims. The monster will often appear in other ways to lure victims closer before transforming into something nasty to terrorize them. It is important to consider just how alien It is compared to us and how small we are in the calculation. It takes tremendous effort to get the attention of Pennywise and keep it. Consider Mike Hanlon. Clearly he stymied it and hurt it by throwing things at it. Even so, the creature didn't stalk him or go out of its way to hunt him down. Think about how much time passed between the events with the bird and Mike joining the losers. If Pennywise cared it could easily have gotten him with applied effort. What I am suggesting is that Pennywise simply forgot about him until their paths crossed again. We are ants to Pennywise in the cosmic scheme of things. Compare that to how quickly and violently Pennywise went after the Losers (starting with Beverly) after they hurt it at Neibolt. Now they had its attention. I trust you see my point.
 

John13

Active Member
Sep 25, 2016
39
149
32
#20
Saying that IT is just a "relaxed" force that controls Derry to the point of letting his victims escape out of boredom is not convincing. Your analysis misses the psycological aspects of the story. IT is a villain that is shaped by Derry more than Derry is shaped by IT. You think of a mummy? You see a mummy. You think a werewolf? You see a werewolf. The reason that IT exists and does all that damage is because the people of Derry let it. Its their personal choice. 90% of IT's appearences occur when someone fears, or hates, or has some negative emotions. When the six came back to Derry, they saw IT only when they started to remember what happened in 1958(with the exception of Bill who is a stronger character). Only when they toured around remember and their emotions unlocked IT
 
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