Could IT have been in Bill's basement just prior to George's death

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Zone D Dad

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2017
359
1,811
Chicago Suburbs
#21
I don't think IT was in the basement either. It's been awhile since I read the novel, but I'll try and articulate this as best as I can. I think there were certain places in Derry in which IT could actually kill in a physical form: The Standpipe, The house at Niebolt Street, The canal, etc. But when it came to people's homes, it felt like IT's power was a little more limited. It could obviously create visual and auditory hallucinations (blood from the drain, the photo album), but I don't recall IT actually killiing someone unless it had the help of a human familiar, such as in the Dorsey Corcoran murder. Now, or course Bill cuts his fingers when he reaches into the photo album, but that may of occurred because he crossed a threshold by his own volition. It's not like Pennywise was able to reach out and grab him.

So why would this be? Could it be because children feel an innate sense of security in their own home? Even if it's subconciously and even if there are frightening elements within the home such as a creepy basement?
 

recitador

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Sep 3, 2016
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#22
Saying that IT is just a "relaxed" force that controls Derry to the point of letting his victims escape out of boredom is not convincing. Your analysis misses the psycological aspects of the story. IT is a villain that is shaped by Derry more than Derry is shaped by IT. You think of a mummy? You see a mummy. You think a werewolf? You see a werewolf. The reason that IT exists and does all that damage is because the people of Derry let it. Its their personal choice. 90% of IT's appearences occur when someone fears, or hates, or has some negative emotions. When the six came back to Derry, they saw IT only when they started to remember what happened in 1958(with the exception of Bill who is a stronger character). Only when they toured around remember and their emotions unlocked IT

this is just so far off the mark i'm not even sure where to start. It predates derry by millions of years. millions. you remember the smoke hole? the prehistoric setting? the crazy maybe spaceship/maybe not that mike and richie saw? so saying that It only exists because the people of derry let it exist means you missed a good chunk of what went on in the story. there are people who are aware of It's existence, but say nothing, because what would they say? what could they do about it? It is clearly supernatural and either people would think them crazy or they'd have no ready solution. taking on the shapes of people's fears doesn't mean people are "shaping" It. It's just what It does when It hunts. your theory would be the equivalent of saying godzilla only destroyed that city cause the people let him. It is akin to a force of nature (obviously not exactly, given It's supernatural nature)

the losers club definitely saw It before they started touring around. lunch at the restaurant? fortune cookies? i'm not sure exactly where you got this theory that It needs to be "unlocked" but that was never even hinted at in the book. not even vaguely. it's just flat wrong. whereas the theory that robert gray laid out, was in fact hinted at in the book, during It's inner monologue later in the book. you have a strange habit of bringing up the psychology of the story without actually understanding it. if robert gray's theory wasn't convincing to you, you need to re-read the book
 

recitador

Speed Reader
Sep 3, 2016
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#24
I don't think IT was in the basement either. It's been awhile since I read the novel, but I'll try and articulate this as best as I can. I think there were certain places in Derry in which IT could actually kill in a physical form: The Standpipe, The house at Niebolt Street, The canal, etc. But when it came to people's homes, it felt like IT's power was a little more limited. It could obviously create visual and auditory hallucinations (blood from the drain, the photo album), but I don't recall IT actually killiing someone unless it had the help of a human familiar, such as in the Dorsey Corcoran murder. Now, or course Bill cuts his fingers when he reaches into the photo album, but that may of occurred because he crossed a threshold by his own volition. It's not like Pennywise was able to reach out and grab him.

So why would this be? Could it be because children feel an innate sense of security in their own home? Even if it's subconciously and even if there are frightening elements within the home such as a creepy basement?

those places are more like where It's strongest. It did in fact kill a child in 1984 in an upstairs bathroom in his own home

ETA: frederick cowan was the child's name. mike brought him up during the reunion luncheon
 

John13

Active Member
Sep 25, 2016
39
149
32
#25
this is just so far off the mark i'm not even sure where to start. It predates derry by millions of years. millions. you remember the smoke hole? the prehistoric setting? the crazy maybe spaceship/maybe not that mike and richie saw? so saying that It only exists because the people of derry let it exist means you missed a good chunk of what went on in the story. there are people who are aware of It's existence, but say nothing, because what would they say? what could they do about it? It is clearly supernatural and either people would think them crazy or they'd have no ready solution. taking on the shapes of people's fears doesn't mean people are "shaping" It. It's just what It does when It hunts. your theory would be the equivalent of saying godzilla only destroyed that city cause the people let him. It is akin to a force of nature (obviously not exactly, given It's supernatural nature)

the losers club definitely saw It before they started touring around. lunch at the restaurant? fortune cookies? i'm not sure exactly where you got this theory that It needs to be "unlocked" but that was never even hinted at in the book. not even vaguely. it's just flat wrong. whereas the theory that robert gray laid out, was in fact hinted at in the book, during It's inner monologue later in the book. you have a strange habit of bringing up the psychology of the story without actually understanding it. if robert gray's theory wasn't convincing to you, you need to re-read the book
I remember this bad explanation about the turtle and the macroverse which reminded me a bit of star trek when they tried to explain something impossible with "scientific" nonsense. I believe King thought some kind of explanation was neccessary but in the end it weakens the horror of IT. The point of the book though is not to explain what IT is. IT symbolises the childhood trauma that haunts you and it will affect your child if you do not destroy it. What you say about the restaurant scene is true and IT can be explained because they had just started to remember. The big question here is why IT sometimes appears and sometimes dont. Both theories are flawed but between a "relaxed" predator that hunts down people whenever it likes and a predator that is "unlocked" by certain emotions i certainly prefer the second. I mean IT had a whole summer to hunt down these kids. Why IT didnt just ambushed them from behind to finish them? If the theory that It can appear whenever it wants its true then the monster is the most stupid monster i ever seen and i dont like that
 

recitador

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Sep 3, 2016
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#26
I remember this bad explanation about the turtle and the macroverse which reminded me a bit of star trek when they tried to explain something impossible with "scientific" nonsense. I believe King thought some kind of explanation was neccessary but in the end it weakens the horror of IT. The point of the book though is not to explain what IT is. IT symbolises the childhood trauma that haunts you and it will affect your child if you do not destroy it. What you say about the restaurant scene is true and IT can be explained because they had just started to remember. The big question here is why IT sometimes appears and sometimes dont. Both theories are flawed but between a "relaxed" predator that hunts down people whenever it likes and a predator that is "unlocked" by certain emotions i certainly prefer the second. I mean IT had a whole summer to hunt down these kids. Why IT didnt just ambushed them from behind to finish them? If the theory that It can appear whenever it wants its true then the monster is the most stupid monster i ever seen and i dont like that
arrogant. not stupid. you're attempting to project what you would do on a super powerful monster that's lived for millions of years without ever being challenged. this isn't even the only time a writer/director/etc has created an arrogant all powerful character that underestimates it's enemies. it's a pretty prolific theme in stories. you're also not even quoting the theory right. there's a big difference between lazy and relaxed, and a big difference between arrogant and stupid. there may be holes in that theory, but it's actually based on things said in the book. you literally created yours out of thin air based on nothing
 

recitador

Speed Reader
Sep 3, 2016
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#28
There is a quote by Mike in one of the interludes that IT is attracted by fear. I didnt created that argument myself
so let me add that there's a big difference between attracted and unlocked. i also addressed this earlier when you brought up this unlocking and said at best, It was attracted to these negative emotions, not "unlocked"
 

John13

Active Member
Sep 25, 2016
39
149
32
#31
so let me add that there's a big difference between attracted and unlocked. i also addressed this earlier when you brought up this unlocking and said at best, It was attracted to these negative emotions, not "unlocked"
No explanation though why IT doesnt appear whenever it wants. Saying that the monster is allmighty powerful but is "bored" to hunt down his victims makes it dumb and weaker
 

recitador

Speed Reader
Sep 3, 2016
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#33
No explanation though why IT doesnt appear whenever it wants. Saying that the monster is allmighty powerful but is "bored" to hunt down his victims makes it dumb and weaker
for the last time, do you not understand the difference between the words lazy and bored? nobody but you said bored. if you're going to argue, quote correctly, also, consult a dictionary
 
#34
No explanation though why IT doesnt appear whenever it wants. Saying that the monster is allmighty powerful but is "bored" to hunt down his victims makes it dumb and weaker
Like it or not, the evidence supports the fact that Pennywise is a lazy predator. He takes the low hanging fruit. He doesn't like to work that hard. Why should he? He is an immortal monster, who until recently was absolutely positive of his invulnerability. He believed himself to be only one of two cosmic entities. It doesn't care that much beyond the initial moment if a child escapes its clutches. Chances are he will run into said child again. If not, mortals don't matter. They are food and playthings, nothing more and nothing less.

Your interpretation of it being dumb or weaker is a bit off the mark. It is so titanic and we are so tiny that it simply hasn't ever had to worry. We are beneath its notice and contempt. In a given day, I probably notice (or barely notice) lots of creatures. I forget them for the most part as soon as they are out of sight. Even if I remember them, a pretty, red cardinal for example, it has no weight in my mind. I am unlikely to go out hunting for that same bird on my next walk. I will be happy to see it again if it comes up. The creature has every reason to be arrogant. It has, after all, been around at least as long as we were more ape than man and living in caves. Dumb? No. Arrogant and due for a surprise? Yes.

You are also assuming that It is almighty powerful. That isn't entirely true. The creature is a singular manifestation of the Deadlights, a mere finger of the awesome power outside of everything. Out there its power is unquestioned. That is why it wanted to take Bill out there and ditch him. In our world, it must abide by our reality. It becomes physical, or mostly physical to affect things. It reflects us. There is no doubt that It is dangerous and potent, but it has clear limits and is aware of them itself. Consider the fact that it actively works to conceal its presence and the oddness of Derry from the outside world. It likes having a private game preserve because it is lazy and doesn't want to deal with interlopers. More to the point, It isn't interested in taking over the world or the multiverse. As far as it is concerned, it already is one of the two most powerful entities in creation. It doesn't show any great ambition. Not unlike Tolkien's Ungoliant, the monster sometimes known as Pennywise simply loves to feast and rules it dominions
 

Reactor

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2009
78
46
Szirmabesenyo, Hungary
#36
I don't think It was down in "ze basementz". There were no manholes, canal, or drain where It could come out from, so Georgie was completely alone down there. This is clearly stated when the Losers confront It in 29 Neibolt Street, they romp the whole place, only to find It in the bathroom, from where It could come out (and blow the toilet to subatomic particles in the way). Unless of course, one of the waterpipes rupture, but that would be noticed by Bill's parents anyway.
I remember that the dead Georgie mentions he was afraid of the monster in the basement thru the car radio, but since It can read its victims mind and extract anything It likes from them, this is a much more logical explaination. After Bill's experience with the winking photo, he fears of a zombie Georgie hidin' in the closet. Thanks to It's presence, It can read this fear from Bill, and later tell it to Beverly from the drain. And yes, I'm well aware that It can teleport to short distances, but even then, It can not decide which cellar or basement should It choose to teleport, and just wait in the dark in hope that a kid would come around. And besides, this teleporting-stuff seem to be much too untrustworthy for It to casually utilize whenever It feels like.

As for the Turtle and It fighting...this would turn out to be a meaningless wild goose-chase. In certain terms, both are immortal, so fighting wouldn't do any good for them, as neither could score a kill. Being a super-multidimensional entity, fighting may be also beyond them. So instead they use their influence on human beings, and see whose side would come out victorious. The Turtle had the Losers, It had the Bowers' gang, and the Other may have supported the side which gained the upper hand.
 

recitador

Speed Reader
Sep 3, 2016
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#39
View attachment 23078 Georgie talking through a car radio?And the pipes thing about neibolt street and bill's parents,wth? Did I read the same book?
the part about neibolt street they're referring to is the fact that It came out of the toilet, or the drains more accurately. It even blasted the toilet to pieces because It was in a hurry, which was mentioned in the book. the part about Bill's parents seeing a water pipe burst is being presented in some form of hypothetical regarding the whole "was It in the basement with georgie" debate, i guess in the form that It might have burst pipes if It came in through their basement, that their parents might then notice? that's kind of what i'm getting out of that part of the post, however, it's not strictly true, as the reason for the destruction at neibolt was stated to be that It was in a hurry, suggesting that It was possible for It to come out of the same place without wreaking havoc.

while the adult Losers were on their way to the sewers to kill It, there was indeed a part where georgie came on the car radio and started talking to bill, which was of course really It trying to get him in the throes of a guilt trip.
 
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mjs9153

Peripherally known member..
Nov 21, 2014
3,286
20,418
#40
the part about neibolt street they're referring to is the fact that It came out of the toilet, or the drains more accurately. It even blasted the toilet to pieces because It was in a hurry, which was mentioned in the book. the part about Bill's parents seeing a water pipe burst is being presented in some form of hypothetical regarding the whole "was It in the basement with georgie" debate, i guess in the form that It might have burst pipes if It came in through their basement, that their parents might then notice? that's kind of what i'm getting out of that part of the post, however, it's not strictly true, as the reason for the destruction at neibolt was stated to be that It was in a hurry, suggesting that It was possible for It to come out of the same place without wreaking havoc.

while the adult Losers were on their way to the sewers to kill It, there was indeed a part where georgie came on the car radio and started talking to bill, which was of course really It trying to get him in the throes of a guilt trip.
on the car radio thing,guess I forgot that part,been too long since I read It..
 
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