Fiction and Reality

[Neesy]

Hello. I am an old lady from California. I wanted to send a comment to Mr. King about his introduction to The Shining, wherein he describes his fulfilled desire to create a bad-guy who is three-dimensional. That is a noble goal; one which he succeeded at reaching. I think in his introduction he is perhaps trying to say that most real villains are not two-dimensional; that there are somewhat valid reasons why they do the awful things that make them fit into the villain category. In some cases that is certainly true, however . . . I have met several villains in my life and I have to say that the worst one I encountered was one-dimensional (except, of course, for his 3-D body). The man kidnapped me and held me prisoner for two months and I got to know him inside and out. He was utterly lacking in depth. There was no psychological reason for him to be doing what he was doing to me, other than perhaps the fact that he was a sadistic psychopath, which I believe comes solely from brain chemistry. I guess what I want here is to defend myself (Mr. King indicated that shallow characters are the product of bad writing) because I have written a supernatural horror novel in which the chief villain is based on this freak (and also an old friend of mine: an incredibly shallow sociopath who told me how much he enjoyed cutting the throats of Vietcong soldiers). Mr. King is a much better writer than I; that's for certain. I have to write about what I know, while Mr. King's imagination is much more fertile and allows him to create completely fictional situations which, while dark, have glimmers of light. But despite what Mr. King has to say about flat characters, I think saying that they are always a sign of mediocrity is perhaps not entirely correct. Still--he is a much better writer than I. I am not here to criticize; simply to disagree.

Hello and Welcome to the SKMB!

I was not sure what to make of your story at first but I see now you were serious and not just one of those hit and run people that are only here to stir things up.
It sounds like a terrible ordeal and I am glad you came out of it 'more or less' unscathed. Talking and writing about it probably helped.

I cannot imagine how horrible it must have been for you.

By the way, I love your avatar! Welcome and keep on posting!

 

[Bryan James]

From a writerish viewpoint, characters must have one "spine" upon which their personae can be extended at pivotal moments in the story. Sometimes that point never comes, so they don't get fully fleshed out. The story itself will separate the weed from the chaff...over-writing just to make every character "real" is a literal drag. King does this on occasion.

There are all flavors of bad guys.

Glad you got away, and welcome to this place.

 

[Riot87]

No, I am a native Californian. I was just visiting Jamaica when all this stuff happened. I was staying in Negril. I got to go way into the back country one day, into a mountainous area where it was actually cold at night. Everyone there spoke patois with no knowledge of English. It was so remote that the children had never seen a white person in the flesh before. They crowded around me staring in fascination at my blonde hair. That was fun! They fed me ackee and rice; it was good. Are you from Jamaica?

Yup i lived there for the first 15 years of my life (Tivoli Gardens). I still visit too but these days i feel like moving back there permanatly.

 

[Haunted]

...tremendous that you made it out the other side, with writing being a way to channel the bad into something positive, and it's OK to disagree with King's assessments-we just don't like it when people swoop & poop with no validity to their hateful postings...

swoop and poop!!!

 

[Haunted]

((((BuffyMacleod))))

 

[skimom2]

...a comment to Mr. King about his introduction to The Shining, wherein he describes his fulfilled desire to create a bad-guy who is three-dimensional. That is a noble goal; one which he succeeded at reaching. I think in his introduction he is perhaps trying to say that most real villains are not two-dimensional; that there are somewhat valid reasons why they do the awful things that make them fit into the villain category. In some cases that is certainly true, however . . . despite what Mr. King has to say about flat characters, I think saying that they are always a sign of mediocrity is perhaps not entirely correct. Still--he is a much better writer than I. I am not here to criticize; simply to disagree.

Keep in mind, too, that you're working from your perception of people. No matter how heinous the action, the actor usually thinks they have a good reason for doing whatever it is. I don't think Mr. King was saying that everyone would agree with those reasons (for horrible things, most of us wouldn't), but that the character has them. He was also saying that it can't be assumed that people who do 'bad' things can't also do 'good' things. Recognizing that is recognizing that they are also human, and that gives them multiple dimensions. A character who is all bad (or all good, for that matter) isn't realistic because people don't work that way.

Congratulations on coming out of your personal hell in one piece, and welcome to the board

 

[buffymacleod]

Hello and Welcome to the SKMB!
View attachment 1878
I was not sure what to make of your story at first but I see now you were serious and not just one of those hit and run people that are only here to stir things up.
It sounds like a terrible ordeal and I am glad you came out of it 'more or less' unscathed. Talking and writing about it probably helped.

I cannot imagine how horrible it must have been for you.

By the way, I love your avatar! Welcome and keep on posting!

Your avatar is cuter than mine: waahhhh. Really; it's a fabulous dog. My avatar is a pencil drawing I did for a book I wrote about a world where animals have more power than people. I did quite a few drawings for the book. This character is called "First Horse." She serves under the General: a female wolf. People always assume that since it's a book about animals and it has pictures, it must be a children's book, but it isn't. The model for this drawing was a gorgeous half-Arab mare who belonged to a friend of mine. Anyhow . . . thanks so much for the welcome. Your avatar is great!

 

[GNTLGNT]

swoop and poop!!!

...it's why I came up with my own name for trolls....Pigeons of the Web...

 

[buffymacleod]

Yup i lived there for the first 15 years of my life (Tivoli Gardens). I still visit too but these days i feel like moving back there permanatly.

I can see why a person would want to live there. I found that the people there were more civilized than most Americans. Jamaicans who were dirt-poor and could barely read or write had wonderful manners: a fine understanding of the need for etiquette.

From a writerish viewpoint, characters must have one "spine" upon which their personae can be extended at pivotal moments in the story. Sometimes that point never comes, so they don't get fully fleshed out. The story itself will separate the weed from the chaff...over-writing just to make every character "real" is a literal drag. King does this on occasion.

There are all flavors of bad guys.

Glad you got away, and welcome to this place.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on writing. Your words comfort me. There are a lot of characters in my book, and if I fleshed out all of them, the manuscript would be three times the 85,000 words it is now. I am trying to streamline it a bit so it will move along at a good pace. I just hope no one expects me to flesh out the damned demon! Why does the demon do what he does; what is his life story; did his demonic father abuse him? etc. (I'm being sarcastic there, in case it isn't obvious.) What the heck: I don't think I have to worry about the literary critic from the NY Times reviewing this book . . .

 

[buffymacleod]

((((BuffyMacleod))))

Thanks!! Lovely picture!

 

[buffymacleod]

Keep in mind, too, that you're working from your perception of people. No matter how heinous the action, the actor usually thinks they have a good reason for doing whatever it is. I don't think Mr. King was saying that everyone would agree with those reasons (for horrible things, most of us wouldn't), but that the character has them. He was also saying that it can't be assumed that people who do 'bad' things can't also do 'good' things. Recognizing that is recognizing that they are also human, and that gives them multiple dimensions. A character who is all bad (or all good, for that matter) isn't realistic because people don't work that way.

Congratulations on coming out of your personal hell in one piece, and welcome to the board

I appreciate your thoughtful words. I do believe, however, that there are people who are all bad. The man who held me captive tortured me fairly often; he also treated his animals (a rooster and a kitten) the same way he treated me. He spent a great deal of time trying to figure out, in cold blood, how he could kill me without getting caught. All of his focus was pointed at one goal: hurting living things. I suspect that if you had to live under the thumb of Phillip Forbes for two months, you would change your mind about people being incapable of being all bad. Absolutely insane people are not like you and I. There may have been a time in Phillip's early life when he was capable of being momentarily good, but I saw no trace of that in two months of being with him 24 hours a day. I was very much in touch with the reality of Phillip, and I stand by my assessment of his character.

 

[buffymacleod]

Thank You Buffy.. Like the gentle giant said sometimes people come in and criticize SK and his works just for the sake of it.. I knew that was not the case here, I just wondered if the terrible trauma that you suffered makes you want the fictitious villian to perfectly parallel real bad guys..good luck with the book,hope it is a success..think you must be very brave,not only to survive that terrible incident,but to share some of the details here. Thank you!

Thank you. I want my fictitious villain to parallel real bad guys, because in this book I want to produce fiction that reflects reality, but I don't expect other writers to follow that desire. Thanks again for your kind words.

 

[FlakeNoir]

Thank you. I want my fictitious villain to parallel real bad guys, because in this book I want to produce fiction that reflects reality, but I don't expect other writers to follow that desire. Thanks again for your kind words.

Have you read Stephen's On Writing? It's a fantastic read and a very helpful tool for writers. Once you've finished your project we also have an area on the board dedicated to promoting people's work. You might like to post a thread in the Self Promotion area to talk more about your book.

 

[mjs9153]

Very true that there are some people that are all bad..they may mask their behavior,but they really have no emotions of love,sadness,etc..Sociopaths.Patrick Hockstetter,in IT,was a very good example.. Forget the number,but something like half of one percent of the population are sociopaths..

 

[blunthead]

Your avatar is cuter than mine: waahhhh. Really; it's a fabulous dog. My avatar is a pencil drawing I did for a book I wrote about a world where animals have more power than people. I did quite a few drawings for the book. This character is called "First Horse." She serves under the General: a female wolf. People always assume that since it's a book about animals and it has pictures, it must be a children's book, but it isn't. The model for this drawing was a gorgeous half-Arab mare who belonged to a friend of mine. Anyhow . . . thanks so much for the welcome. Your avatar is great!

Excellent drawing, btw. Did you work from a photo?

 

[buffymacleod]

Excellent drawing, btw. Did you work from a photo?

Thanks! I used to make my living doing portraits of polo ponies. Yes, I did work from a photo, or to be more precise, several photos. The horse was running when I photographed her for the main pose, and some details were lost, so when she was standing still, I took close-ups of her face.

 

[buffymacleod]

Have you read Stephen's On Writing? It's a fantastic read and a very helpful tool for writers. Once you've finished your project we also have an area on the board dedicated to promoting people's work. You might like to post a thread in the Self Promotion area to talk more about your book.

No, I haven't read that book, and I think I should. And THANK YOU for telling me about the Self Promotion area--I didn't know that existed. I was very carefully not mentioning the titles of either of my books because I didn't think it was appropriate for me to use Mr. King's site for my own work. I did already publish one of my books, though I don't think fans of Mr. King would be interested in the animal-dominated piece. Thanks again for the info!

 

[buffymacleod]

Very true that there are some people that are all bad..they may mask their behavior,but they really have no emotions of love,sadness,etc..Sociopaths.Patrick Hockstetter,in IT,was a very good example.. Forget the number,but something like half of one percent of the population are sociopaths..

Thank you for being aware of sociopaths! A lot of people don't realize that their occasional displays of "good" behavior and emotions are just that: displays; an act put on to satisfy the rules of society. I've known a couple of sociopaths quite closely and also knew their personal histories well. As near as I can tell, they had no reason to possess these mindsets other than the probable fact that they were born that way.