Loose Ends, Plotholes, Speculation, and Theories (SPOILERS)

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Aug 14, 2017
14
52
27
#1
Hey everyone! Just wanted to talk about a few things within It and some other SK novels that were never fully explained, intentionally or unintentionally. I'll just post a few bullet points and see where the conversation goes from there. I just finished a reread so everything is fresh in my mind, but I probably won't be posting things like exact page numbers and things like that.

1. Victor Criss approaching the Losers some time in early August
I really noticed for the first time that Vic is something of a sympathetic character, albeit a bully, in the novel. But that's beside the point, this is regarding something Bill mentioned in I believe either the adult segment of the Bullseye chapter, or the chapter directly before that. He says something about Vic approaching him, Bev, and Ben when they were hanging out at Tracker Brothers one day just before they went into the sewers. Anyone have any ideas what such a meeting entailed? Did the Losers shout him off when they saw him approaching before hearing what he had to say? Did they talk? This matter can only really be speculated on. I'm sure even if they were sympathetic toward his plight, there wouldn't be any room for him to join their perfect circle of 7. Still very interesting though, like Vic sensed he was not only a pawn, but a pawn for evil and insanity.

2. Mike's scars at the Jade of the Orient reunion
At one point Mike unbuttons his shirt to reveal scars all over his chest, and the rest of the Losers suddenly remember and start attributing the scars to the Werewolf during the raid of 29 Neibolt Street. But as we learn it was Ben who got scarred that day, or rather, SK only plainly states that Ben was wounded during the raid. So was there off-screen action in which Mike got cut up by the Werewolf or is this another plothole akin to Mike supposedly going to both the black-only Methodist school and the Losers school?

3. Eddie's sense of direction
It was stated that Eddie had that ability long before any outside agents (The Other/The White) started taking an interest in the Losers. Why did he all of a sudden lose this trait when the Other's power receded? Simple fear?

4. "PENNYWISE LIVES"
This phrase is graffitied onto a statue in Derry, seen in the novel Dreamcatcher. And iirc this takes place after the events of 1985 in Derry. So what the hell? Did Ben miss an egg? Can Its true form (the deadlights) just send another physical form of Itself into our universe, thus making it virtually unkillable? And who, after 1985, would still be left in Derry to write such a message? Another very curious mystery.

5. Dandelo
In Dark Tower Book 7 Roland and his remaining ka-tet encounter the creature Dandelo in the White Plains of Empathica. I'll just list off all the curiosities surrounding this character:
-Uses positive emotions (humor, happiness) to kill, similar to how It uses negative emotions in Its victims to kill
-The elf/rose wallpaper from 29 Neibolt Street also plasters the walls of Dandelo's bathroom
-Owns a robot named Stuttering Bill, iirc likes to torture it by refusing to deprogram its stutter
-Has Patrick Danville, a Derry resident, as a captive
So is this thing like a cousin or sibling of It? Kindred spirits from the Prim? Way too many coincidences.

I think that's all I've got. Feel free to contribute anything else I might have missed. I know there's another thread about what happened between Bev and her father after beating It in 1958 so I'll leave conversation on that topic to its designated thread.
 
Aug 14, 2017
14
52
27
#9
Welcome.
I think the rose wallpaper was a coincidence. In the case of Dandelo, it was rose because of the Tower.
Oh, are we sure about that? If it was just rose-patterned wallpaper it could be a coincidence but I thought it had that weird "capering elves" pattern as well. I'll try to look up the relevant passage in DT7.
 
Aug 14, 2017
14
52
27
#13
I believe Mr King himself has acknowledged that Dandelo and Pennywise are of the same species.
Cool! Was it in response to a fan question or something like that? I'd like to read his answer.

A couple of things I wanted to clarify after further thinking/research. I hadn't read Insomnia in awhile while making the original OP; apparently, contrary to what Mike thinks about toward the end of It, he actually still is a Derry resident at the time of the events of Insomnia (early to mid 90s I believe), so there could be someone left in town to graffiti "Pennywise Lives" on the statue, and would have insider information on the creature. But somehow tagging graffiti doesn't really strike me as Mike's style. If I had to come up with a theory for this, I would guess that somehow the whole 1958/1985 real events morphed into a sort of Derry urban legend by the 90s. You know, something teens tell each other to scare each other like "Back in '85 when all those kids went missing, some say it was a killer clown named Pennywise", not even knowing how close they are to the truth of the matter.

And as far as Eddie's sense of direction, after the notorious love-making scene, he says "We should've made a turn back there, I was just all frigged up." So I think it can be attributed to simple fear. At that moment Bill was thinking how even Ben seemed close to cracking, and he considered Ben the most solid of the Losers. Like I'm a natural musician but I think my skills in music would drastically decrease after facing off against a giant spider/Eldritch monster.

Still, that Victor Criss/Losers meeting still piques my curiosity, as well as the relationship between It and Dandelo.

Edit: Forgot to mention, although I do think it's theoretically possible that the deadlights version of It could send another "physical avatar" to our world after the destruction of the Spider and Its brood, but I was forgetting just what the coming of It into our universe looks like, from the Smoke-Hole chapter. No one in the Northwestern Hempishere could have missed such a devastating impact/arrival.
 

recitador

Speed Reader
Sep 3, 2016
1,704
7,947
35
#15
Hey everyone! Just wanted to talk about a few things within It and some other SK novels that were never fully explained, intentionally or unintentionally. I'll just post a few bullet points and see where the conversation goes from there. I just finished a reread so everything is fresh in my mind, but I probably won't be posting things like exact page numbers and things like that.

1. Victor Criss approaching the Losers some time in early August
I really noticed for the first time that Vic is something of a sympathetic character, albeit a bully, in the novel. But that's beside the point, this is regarding something Bill mentioned in I believe either the adult segment of the Bullseye chapter, or the chapter directly before that. He says something about Vic approaching him, Bev, and Ben when they were hanging out at Tracker Brothers one day just before they went into the sewers. Anyone have any ideas what such a meeting entailed? Did the Losers shout him off when they saw him approaching before hearing what he had to say? Did they talk? This matter can only really be speculated on. I'm sure even if they were sympathetic toward his plight, there wouldn't be any room for him to join their perfect circle of 7. Still very interesting though, like Vic sensed he was not only a pawn, but a pawn for evil and insanity.

2. Mike's scars at the Jade of the Orient reunion
At one point Mike unbuttons his shirt to reveal scars all over his chest, and the rest of the Losers suddenly remember and start attributing the scars to the Werewolf during the raid of 29 Neibolt Street. But as we learn it was Ben who got scarred that day, or rather, SK only plainly states that Ben was wounded during the raid. So was there off-screen action in which Mike got cut up by the Werewolf or is this another plothole akin to Mike supposedly going to both the black-only Methodist school and the Losers school?

3. Eddie's sense of direction
It was stated that Eddie had that ability long before any outside agents (The Other/The White) started taking an interest in the Losers. Why did he all of a sudden lose this trait when the Other's power receded? Simple fear?

4. "PENNYWISE LIVES"
This phrase is graffitied onto a statue in Derry, seen in the novel Dreamcatcher. And iirc this takes place after the events of 1985 in Derry. So what the hell? Did Ben miss an egg? Can Its true form (the deadlights) just send another physical form of Itself into our universe, thus making it virtually unkillable? And who, after 1985, would still be left in Derry to write such a message? Another very curious mystery.

5. Dandelo
In Dark Tower Book 7 Roland and his remaining ka-tet encounter the creature Dandelo in the White Plains of Empathica. I'll just list off all the curiosities surrounding this character:
-Uses positive emotions (humor, happiness) to kill, similar to how It uses negative emotions in Its victims to kill
-The elf/rose wallpaper from 29 Neibolt Street also plasters the walls of Dandelo's bathroom
-Owns a robot named Stuttering Bill, iirc likes to torture it by refusing to deprogram its stutter
-Has Patrick Danville, a Derry resident, as a captive
So is this thing like a cousin or sibling of It? Kindred spirits from the Prim? Way too many coincidences.

I think that's all I've got. Feel free to contribute anything else I might have missed. I know there's another thread about what happened between Bev and her father after beating It in 1958 so I'll leave conversation on that topic to its designated thread.
1 - i've always been intrigued by that conversation. i wish he had gone into more detail about it, but i guess we just have to use our imaginations. considering the tension between them at that point, it was probably a short one

2 - this was probably just a mistake

3 - i think, yes, it was fear. their bond got them through the fight and helped keep a lid on their panic, but their bond was falling apart, giving rise to it. and no matter what sense of direction you've got, if you're panicking, you're going to screw up

4 - he also says in tommyknockers that two kids from haven see pennywise, and tommyknockers came out after It, so other levels of the tower maybe? easter eggs that he threw in as a nod? i'm sure more townspeople were aware of pennywise than was ever let on, after all, we know that the losers club weren't the only ones to ever survive an encounter. there was bill's skateboard kid who's friend saw jaws, for instance. so perhaps it was one of those survivors having a little rebel without a cause moment and throwing down some graffiti, and ultimately it didn't mean anything.

5 - i think that was adequately covered already up above
 

Rockym

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2012
70
212
#16
Has anyone else noticed that the symbol that was on It's door in the sewers also appears on the "control box" in Under the Dome? And it also sounds like the symbol is on the hatch of the ship in Tommyknockers. Does this mean that the "leatherheads", Tommyknockers and It all come from the same place? It arrived on Earth a long, long time ago, as did apparently the Tommyknockers. Could it mean the leatherheads are an evolved form of the other two species?
 

GNTLGNT

The idiot is IN
Jun 15, 2007
82,541
319,913
57
Cambridge, Ohio
#18
Has anyone else noticed that the symbol that was on It's door in the sewers also appears on the "control box" in Under the Dome? And it also sounds like the symbol is on the hatch of the ship in Tommyknockers. Does this mean that the "leatherheads", Tommyknockers and It all come from the same place? It arrived on Earth a long, long time ago, as did apparently the Tommyknockers. Could it mean the leatherheads are an evolved form of the other two species?
....these symbols have been found on door that lead to Todash space....thereby allowing travel within/between worlds.....
 
#19
Has anyone else noticed that the symbol that was on It's door in the sewers also appears on the "control box" in Under the Dome? And it also sounds like the symbol is on the hatch of the ship in Tommyknockers. Does this mean that the "leatherheads", Tommyknockers and It all come from the same place? It arrived on Earth a long, long time ago, as did apparently the Tommyknockers. Could it mean the leatherheads are an evolved form of the other two species?
My opinion is that they are not the same type of creature, not at all. First, It arrived from "outside," i.e. outside of everything. It is a monster whose true essence is walled off from our various realities. Pieces of the thing sometimes get in through pinholes, as is my opinion of Pennywise. The Tommyknockers are an alien species grounded very much in self-serving science. Their life cycle appears to be entirely within the confines of our reality. That doesn't make them any less horrific, but they don't seem to cast a metaphysical shadow. The creatures from Under the Dome are vastly powerful creatures, but I still don't think they are directly related to Pennywise. They are largely oblivious to our existence, we are ants to them at best, make-believe at worst. The thing beyond all the realities is aware of its victims on a human scale as well as a cosmic one. It is aware of what it does and the different scales at which it interacts. I suspect the symbols which seem to be in common in the various tales have more to do with telepathic contact. Powerful, telepathic entities often speak directly into the minds of others, or perhaps the weaker or non-telepathic entities simply perceive things on a level they can understand. The symbol on the door into It's final lair was simply fear, and appeared different (as the monster often did) to the Losers at one point. Do you see what I mean? I expect those "symbols" at various places are merely telepathic warnings or statements which lesser minds simply visualize as humans do, in symbols and glyph.
 
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