Loose Ends, Plotholes, Speculation, and Theories (SPOILERS)

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Rockym

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2012
70
212
#21
My opinion is that they are not the same type of creature, not at all. First, It arrived from "outside," i.e. outside of everything. It is a monster whose true essence is walled off from our various realities. Pieces of the thing sometimes get in through pinholes, as is my opinion of Pennywise. The Tommyknockers are an alien species grounded very much in self-serving science. Their life cycle appears to be entirely within the confines of our reality. That doesn't make them any less horrific, but they don't seem to cast a metaphysical shadow. The creatures from Under the Dome are vastly powerful creatures, but I still don't think they are directly related to Pennywise. They are largely oblivious to our existence, we are ants to them at best, make-believe at worst. The thing beyond all the realities is aware of its victims on a human scale as well as a cosmic one. It is aware of what it does and the different scales at which it interacts. I suspect the symbols which seem to be in common in the various tales have more to do with telepathic contact. Powerful, telepathic entities often speak directly into the minds of others, or perhaps the weaker or non-telepathic entities simply perceive things on a level they can understand. The symbol on the door into It's final lair was simply fear, and appeared different (as the monster often did) to the Losers at one point. Do you see what I mean? I expect those "symbols" at various places are merely telepathic warnings or statements which lesser minds simply visualize as humans do, in symbols and glyph.
Well, what I was saying was that we know It landed on earth from space from the smoke hole incident in the book. And it seems to have happened millions of years ago, maybe before the dinosaurs. So I though maybe the leatherheads or the Tommyknockers are what It's species evolved into after millions of years.
 
#22
Well, what I was saying was that we know It landed on earth from space from the smoke hole incident in the book. And it seems to have happened millions of years ago, maybe before the dinosaurs. So I though maybe the leatherheads or the Tommyknockers are what It's species evolved into after millions of years.
Yes and no. It came from the sky and made a really big hole. But if you will recall from the chapter, Richie and Mike kind of agreed it wasn't really a spaceship. It came from "outside" and by outside we are talking about everything. Some people here have called it dimensional travel, but I'm not really sure I'm down with defining it that way either. The different dimensions are different levels of the Tower. It came from outside REALITY. So it is alien, but not a space alien.
 
Mar 5, 2017
14
35
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#24
Cool! Was it in response to a fan question or something like that? I'd like to read his answer.

A couple of things I wanted to clarify after further thinking/research. I hadn't read Insomnia in awhile while making the original OP; apparently, contrary to what Mike thinks about toward the end of It, he actually still is a Derry resident at the time of the events of Insomnia (early to mid 90s I believe), so there could be someone left in town to graffiti "Pennywise Lives" on the statue, and would have insider information on the creature. But somehow tagging graffiti doesn't really strike me as Mike's style. If I had to come up with a theory for this, I would guess that somehow the whole 1958/1985 real events morphed into a sort of Derry urban legend by the 90s. You know, something teens tell each other to scare each other like "Back in '85 when all those kids went missing, some say it was a killer clown named Pennywise", not even knowing how close they are to the truth of the matter.

And as far as Eddie's sense of direction, after the notorious love-making scene, he says "We should've made a turn back there, I was just all frigged up." So I think it can be attributed to simple fear. At that moment Bill was thinking how even Ben seemed close to cracking, and he considered Ben the most solid of the Losers. Like I'm a natural musician but I think my skills in music would drastically decrease after facing off against a giant spider/Eldritch monster.

Still, that Victor Criss/Losers meeting still piques my curiosity, as well as the relationship between It and Dandelo.

Edit: Forgot to mention, although I do think it's theoretically possible that the deadlights version of It could send another "physical avatar" to our world after the destruction of the Spider and Its brood, but I was forgetting just what the coming of It into our universe looks like, from the Smoke-Hole chapter. No one in the Northwestern Hempishere could have missed such a devastating impact/arrival.
I don't think it could of been Mike. He started forgetting again in 1985.
 
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Reactor

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2009
78
46
Szirmabesenyo, Hungary
#25
- Dandelo cannot be the same species as It, since It stated to Beverly that he was the last survivor from a dying planet. So this is a contradiction.

- I've read on the Wiki that many kid characters are labelled as "dead" (for instance, Peter Gordon, Gard Jagemayer and such), saying It got them. Maybe even the book says that, I dunno, I have the Hungarian translation. This is clearly a contradiction for two reasons. One: The first clash between It and the Losers forced It to retreat deeply and for an early sleep, and didn't emerge until 1985 again. So how could It kill the mentioned children? Two: At the final chapter, we see Calvin Clark as a firefighter, getting shocked and killed by a live wire upon dismounting the firetruck. Calvin Clark was a classmate of Ben's and Beverly's, so he was perfectly alive and healthy until 1985, thank you.

- Betty Ripson's father said to Mike he heard Betty laughing or screaming from the pipes in late 1958. This is also a contradiction, as the Losers defeated It and forced an early nap, so It could not have play voice tricks with anyone.

- After the destruction of Derry, the 29 Neibolt Street was left intact, whilst everything else where It appeared turned to ashes and rubble. Eeny-weeny-little-plothole.
 
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recitador

Speed Reader
Sep 3, 2016
1,704
7,947
35
#26
- Dandelo cannot be the same species as It, since It stated to Beverly that he was the last survivor from a dying planet. So this is a contradiction.

- I've read on the Wiki that many kid characters are labelled as "dead" (for instance, Peter Gordon, Gard Jagemayer and such), saying It got them. Maybe even the book says that, I dunno, I have the Hungarian translation. This is clearly a contradiction for two reasons. One: The first clash between It and the Losers forced It to retreat deeply and for an early sleep, and didn't emerge until 1985 again. So how could It kill the mentioned children? Two: At the final chapter, we see Calvin Clark as a firefighter, getting shocked and killed by a live wire upon dismounting the firetruck. Calvin Clark was a classmate of Ben's and Beverly's, so he was perfectly alive and healthy until 1985, thank you.

- Betty Ripson's father said to Mike he heard Betty laughing or screaming from the pipes in late 1958. This is also a contradiction, as the Losers defeated It and forced an early nap, so It could not have play voice tricks with anyone.

- After the destruction of Derry, the 29 Neibolt Street was left intact, whilst everything else where It appeared turned to ashes and rubble. Eeny-weeny-little-plothole.
i just checked the wiki. it only says that it was possible peter gordon and gard jagermayer died because of eddie saying at one point, that after a certain victim (jimmy cullum maybe? i forget), that the only kids that died in 1958 were henry's friends. calvin clarks wiki entry is correct, and describes how he died.
 
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Reactor

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2009
78
46
Szirmabesenyo, Hungary
#27
Well, Victor and Belchy were the final victims of the 1958 killing spree, so Eddie was right in this. Before that, Jimmy Cullum and Patrick Hockstetter were killed. Peter Gordon, Moose Sadler, Gard Jagermeyer and the others must have survived however.
 
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recitador

Speed Reader
Sep 3, 2016
1,704
7,947
35
#28
Well, Victor and Belchy were the final victims of the 1958 killing spree, so Eddie was right in this. Before that, Jimmy Cullum and Patrick Hockstetter were killed. Peter Gordon, Moose Sadler, Gard Jagermeyer and the others must have survived however.
theoretically. we didn't get a play by play of everything that happened that summer. they could have easily died "off screen" it's not like we know the names of all the kids who only disappeared, vs being discovered as victims, for instance.
 
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#29
- Dandelo cannot be the same species as It, since It stated to Beverly that he was the last survivor from a dying planet. So this is a contradiction.
What makes you think what it says to Bev is true? Like its form, everything the thing says is a glamour, concepts it communicates for the fun of it. It lies by nature. I personally believe that Dandelo is one of the spawn that Ben missed in the darkness, a spiderling that fled through the thinny. As it is part of its parent, there are allusions to what happened with the Losers in encountering Dandelo. It also feeds on emotions, but prefers a different flavor. It is also much younger and thus much less powerful. It isn't an avatar of the Deadlights. It is a spawn of one such avatar.

- Betty Ripson's father said to Mike he heard Betty laughing or screaming from the pipes in late 1958. This is also a contradiction, as the Losers defeated It and forced an early nap, so It could not have play voice tricks with anyone.
Sure it can. Just because it sleeps doesn't mean its influence isn't at work. Derry has a higher murder rate than any city like it even on the best of years. :) When it sleeps it is merely a dreaming spirit. It doesn't have to be awake and actively hunting to affect the world around it. The mere presence of it is wrong, bad.

- After the destruction of Derry, the 29 Neibolt Street was left intact, whilst everything else where It appeared turned to ashes and rubble. Eeny-weeny-little-plothole.
What are you basing this on? I don't recall Neibolt being mentioned as being left intact? I suppose I could have forgotten something, but that seems like a detail that would stick out to me. Are you assuming this because we don't get a specific scene where it blows up, drowns, or burns down?
 

Reactor

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2009
78
46
Szirmabesenyo, Hungary
#30
You're right about It might have been lying to Beverly, though, partially It was right. The balloons stated that It came from outer space...and It did indeed. Being the last of a dying species must also be true (apart from It's hatchlings), otherwise the Turtle would warn the Losers about this, and it also does not seem logical. If there is only one Turtle, there must not be any more Its either, that is what equilibrium demands. And during the final confrontation, It would positively hint that killing It wouldn't make a difference, as there are several other life beings like It, and they'd take the place afterwards. So I'm assuming It told the truth.

I remember it was mentioned in the first interlude that the murder rate in Derry is higher, I just don't know how much influence It has over the city when It dozes. At the other two occassions, when It was talking thru the drains to people, It was awake. The case of Mr. Ripson stands out for some reason.

As for the destruction of the 29 Neibolt Street, it was a paramount place enough not to forget about as an oversight, whilst every other location was destroyed. This is why I assume that 29 Neibolt Street survived, especially because it was nowhere near to the town center.
 
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#31
You're right about It might have been lying to Beverly, though, partially It was right. The balloons stated that It came from outer space...and It did indeed. Being the last of a dying species must also be true (apart from It's hatchlings), otherwise the Turtle would warn the Losers about this, and it also does not seem logical. If there is only one Turtle, there must not be any more Its either, that is what equilibrium demands. And during the final confrontation, It would positively hint that killing It wouldn't make a difference, as there are several other life beings like It, and they'd take the place afterwards. So I'm assuming It told the truth.
Well it isn't really from outer space, just outside of everything. That isn't space Bill crosses to get to that cosmic barrier. It is the black. That is why there is no description of stars or moons or anything else. And for what it is worth, Pennywise is lying directly about it being the last of a dying race. Remember, we get a direct look into its thoughts. It believes itself to be one of two cosmic, immortal entities (itself and the Turtle). To be last there had to be a first, and there isn't. It also doesn't believe it is dying or can die. The Turtle wouldn't warn the Losers about anything. It only speaks because Bill speaks to it. It makes suggestions about the matter at hand but doesn't elaborate. That isn't the Turtle's way. And there is another, i.e. the Other. We must also remember that the creature has been feeding for a purpose, and spawning appears to have been the endgame. Born of the Deadlights it is a spiritual entity that has to take physical form. That is not its natural state. For untold centuries it has been gestating spawn, i.e. children that would be born of it in this reality. One can only imagine the implications. At the very least, I expect that long process would be a step towards the octopus getting into the bottle to eat the fish, metaphorically speaking. Looking to Tolkien's Ungoliant again we see this as another similarity. A powerful, cosmic spirit takes monstrous form. It spends countless years feeding and growing in power. It breeds with creatures of the physical world and spawns monsters like itself but far weaker.

I remember it was mentioned in the first interlude that the murder rate in Derry is higher, I just don't know how much influence It has over the city when It dozes. At the other two occassions, when It was talking thru the drains to people, It was awake. The case of Mr. Ripson stands out for some reason.
The crime rate, as well as people going missing is many times the national average even when the monster sleeps (if you want to call it that). During the time of the cycle it goes off the chart. This is explained to us in painful detail by the adult version of Mike Hanlon. The implications of this are unsettling to say the least. It means the monster has a fitful sleep at best and its influence still pervades Derry on some level. It could be the weak-minded and evil among the residents are dogsbodies for the sleeping spirit, indulging in horrible acts partially driven by the monster. If we consider 11/22/63
this theory is bolstered a great deal. Think about the butcher who tries to kill his whole family. Think about what he says to the hero who is attempting to intercede. They could be the words of just a madman in a fury over finding someone in his house he doesn't recognize, but the same statement could be made by the spirit of Pennywise seeing another interloper on its turf. If you haven't read the book, you should. I'm doing my best to avoid direct spoilers.

As for the destruction of the 29 Neibolt Street, it was a paramount place enough not to forget about as an oversight, whilst every other location was destroyed. This is why I assume that 29 Neibolt Street survived, especially because it was nowhere near to the town center.
The mall is nowhere near the town center either but it explodes. The Standpipe is not downtown. It is at the highest point in town; it bites the dust too. I agree that I do not recall a specific description of Neibolt Street burning down (or something like that) but it is implied that all the places touched heavily by it are destroyed. While I'm not totally discounting your supposition, I think it is likely a bridge too far. I think it simply didn't make the cut for the paragraphs.
 
Jun 28, 2018
5
14
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#32
Hi, I am new here. :)

I found some things that haven't been mentioned in this thread.

1. Eddie's arm: In 85, it's Eddie's left arm which is broken (again) and in 58 it's his right. I would strike it off as mistake if it was a random thing, but it continues throughout the whole novel (85, left arm; 58, right arm).

2. Belch, Henry and Victor in the Sewers: In 1985, Henry tells his dead friend Belch that he ran away in fear after IT tore Victor's head off and that he saw Belch stepping in front of IT and also dying. In 1985--confirming Henry's version--the Losers find both corpses close together. In 1958, however, it seems as if Henry and Belch follow the Losers for hours. That struck me as odd, so I checked the timestamps before the subchapters and that messed with my mind. Parts of that journey that feel like miles and hours to the Losers only last for a maximum of 5 minutes.

3. Stan knowing IT's secret: In 1985, Ben remembers that Stan knew that IT was pregnant and that he told them. We, however, never see that happening.
 

Moderator

Ms. Mod
Administrator
Jul 10, 2006
48,162
127,393
Maine
#33
Hi, I am new here. :)

I found some things that haven't been mentioned in this thread.

1. Eddie's arm: In 85, it's Eddie's left arm which is broken (again) and in 58 it's his right. I would strike it off as mistake if it was a random thing, but it continues throughout the whole novel (85, left arm; 58, right arm).

2. Belch, Henry and Victor in the Sewers: In 1985, Henry tells his dead friend Belch that he ran away in fear after IT tore Victor's head off and that he saw Belch stepping in front of IT and also dying. In 1985--confirming Henry's version--the Losers find both corpses close together. In 1958, however, it seems as if Henry and Belch follow the Losers for hours. That struck me as odd, so I checked the timestamps before the subchapters and that messed with my mind. Parts of that journey that feel like miles and hours to the Losers only last for a maximum of 5 minutes.

3. Stan knowing IT's secret: In 1985, Ben remembers that Stan knew that IT was pregnant and that he told them. We, however, never see that happening.
Welcome to the Board!

I was not able to post your link as Stephen is not agreeable to fan fiction being done of his work.
 

Spideyman

Uber Member
Jul 10, 2006
41,439
156,082
74
Just north of Duma Key
#34
Hi, I am new here. :)

I found some things that haven't been mentioned in this thread.

1. Eddie's arm: In 85, it's Eddie's left arm which is broken (again) and in 58 it's his right. I would strike it off as mistake if it was a random thing, but it continues throughout the whole novel (85, left arm; 58, right arm).

2. Belch, Henry and Victor in the Sewers: In 1985, Henry tells his dead friend Belch that he ran away in fear after IT tore Victor's head off and that he saw Belch stepping in front of IT and also dying. In 1985--confirming Henry's version--the Losers find both corpses close together. In 1958, however, it seems as if Henry and Belch follow the Losers for hours. That struck me as odd, so I checked the timestamps before the subchapters and that messed with my mind. Parts of that journey that feel like miles and hours to the Losers only last for a maximum of 5 minutes.

3. Stan knowing IT's secret: In 1985, Ben remembers that Stan knew that IT was pregnant and that he told them. We, however, never see that happening.
Hi and welcome.
 
Jun 28, 2018
5
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#37
Thanks for the welcome, guys!

About Neibolt (I know I am late to they party, but what the hell) I got the impression that they purged that place of IT and it became just an old ramshackle building after "The Bullseye".
 
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Marty Coslaw

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2018
48
189
32
DC
#38
Hi, I am new here. :)

I found some things that haven't been mentioned in this thread.

1. Eddie's arm: In 85, it's Eddie's left arm which is broken (again) and in 58 it's his right. I would strike it off as mistake if it was a random thing, but it continues throughout the whole novel (85, left arm; 58, right arm).

2. Belch, Henry and Victor in the Sewers: In 1985, Henry tells his dead friend Belch that he ran away in fear after IT tore Victor's head off and that he saw Belch stepping in front of IT and also dying. In 1985--confirming Henry's version--the Losers find both corpses close together. In 1958, however, it seems as if Henry and Belch follow the Losers for hours. That struck me as odd, so I checked the timestamps before the subchapters and that messed with my mind. Parts of that journey that feel like miles and hours to the Losers only last for a maximum of 5 minutes.

3. Stan knowing IT's secret: In 1985, Ben remembers that Stan knew that IT was pregnant and that he told them. We, however, never see that happening.
This kind of post is the reason I joined the boards! Thank you for posting such thoughtful observations of my favorite (King) book. I remember thinking about the broken arm, but I'm most interested in your second point. The biggest blank spot for me was the confrontation of (I think) Belch and Pennywise, where Pennywise took the form of Frankenstein (referenced earlier in the book as a memory). The way I remember it, when we finally get to that point in the book, Belch and Victor just disappear and maybe the Losers hear a scream or something. I really wanted to see Frankenstein get Belch and Victor, plus, like you said, the timeline makes the whole thing so confusing you wonder when that could've even happened. I was frustrated with the sewer section at the end of the book because I felt like everything started moving so fast, so suddenly. The town collapsing, jumping back and forth between children and adults. Of course, the only reason to nitpick a novel this way is that it was so vivid it feels like you experienced it all as a reader! Still my #1.
 
Jun 28, 2018
5
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#39
Thank you so much! :D I am currently rereading IT and--with it being my favorite novel as well--it's a real emotional rollercoaster.

Eddie's Arm: The broken arm problem makes me think of a mirror image, since mirrors are a prominent theme in the novel.

The Sewers: I am almost sure that there is something wrong with time and space below Derry and it would fit the Lovecraftian Horror aspects of the novel.
 

GNTLGNT

The idiot is IN
Jun 15, 2007
82,541
319,934
57
Cambridge, Ohio
#40
Thank you so much! :D I am currently rereading IT and--with it being my favorite novel as well--it's a real emotional rollercoaster.

Eddie's Arm: The broken arm problem makes me think of a mirror image, since mirrors are a prominent theme in the novel.

The Sewers: I am almost sure that there is something wrong with time and space below Derry and it would fit the Lovecraftian Horror aspects of the novel.
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