Lord Of The Flies

[skimom2]

Doesn't anyone think that with girls they'd bring out the caring nature that seems to be inherent in the female of the species?

You've never been a teenage girl--lol. I have (and I have 2 teen daughters) and in my experience, they're WAY more vicious than boys. If older women and small children were involved, MAYBE the tendency would be toward organizing for the collective good... but it could go the other direction, if each was more intent on the survival of their own child.

 

[Moderator]

Yeah right Boys, they kick each others ass and then quickly establish some sort of pecking order. Girls though? They scheme, manipulate, lie, deceive, and are infinitely more mean and sadistic then boys.

True in some cases. While I abhor that type of behavior I can understand how it came to be as it has been considered by society for longer than any of us can count taboo for girls to be more open about their anger. If they don't know how to do it in a more open assertive manner, the unwritten rule is that they need to be passive aggressive (sneaky) about it. I don't condone physical violence either but it is a coping mechanism for anger that is more "acceptable" for boys than girls.

 

[skimom2]

There's a couple of great lines in another great story, from Steinbeck, East of Eden: I believe there are monsters born in the world to human parents. Seems to offer an idea or two for debate about evil. Here, Steinbeck suggests evil is born into the world. In another: maybe we all have in us a secret pond where evil & ugly things germinate and grow strong, Steinbeck
seems to be offering another explanation for evil...or maybe really not another option, but one that perhaps explains the actions of the boys in Lord of the Flies. In another story, one that King uses in his Hearts in Atlantis story, Ted, this old buck, has Bobby, a young man, read a couple stories. I believe Lord of the Flies is one of them and the other is A Separate Peace from John Knowles...or maybe I'm injecting this last into King's story...as it helped explain our actions, young boys growing up during the turbulence of the 60s. King's story, Hearts in Atlantis, truth be told, touched me like few stories have and his story should be included on the shelf with all of the stories in my post.

I wonder if I already posted this...posted a post like this? If ever there was a wiz there was...and so on and so forth and scooby dooby dooby. Anyway...check out all the above stories if you enjoyed Lord of the Flies. For us, like Gene and Phineas in Knowles' story, we played rough because we thought we were going to war...Vietnam. So in that sense, seems like it's legitimate to wonder if in fact evil isn't fostered in a larger sense, society as a whole. And my last connection is to Arthur C Clarke's Childhood's End and the ending of that remarkable story...taking that "society as a whole" idea and looking at lemmings...that animal that rushes headlong into the sea. There's this idea I call 'the mark of zero'...maybe a tad lame...but there is present in the above stories...and others I've read, this idea that we as a group want to disappear, we want to bury our self...or Self. Clarke's story has an ending that'd I'm sure you'd enjoy in that regard.

East of Eden is the best book I've ever read--thanks for the quotes, Walter.

A feminist contrast (and maybe compliment) to Lord of the Flies might be Herland, by Charlotte Perkins Gilman. This story posits a male-less world that's pretty much an Eden... until MEN arrive with their mannish ways. I found it to be an eye-roller, but many in the class took it very, very seriously, and it plays into this debate about 'nature vs. nurture' in men & women's psychological make up.

 

[Walter Oobleck]

You've never been a teenage girl--lol. I have (and I have 2 teen daughters) and in my experience, they're WAY more vicious than boys. If older women and small children were involved, MAYBE the tendency would be toward organizing for the collective good... but it could go the other direction, if each was more intent on the survival of their own child.

Actually...I did reconsider...after reading another post here I think it was, and remembering the Batman/Bewitched Battle of 1968 during which I received a Purple Heart. I was out-numbered, however.

 

[Kurben]

Finished this two days ago. A great book, I suggest anyone who hasn't read to do so.

I am curious to know all of your reactions to the spiral into savagery (is that a word?) the boys undergo. How did it make you look at humanity differently?

I am a cynic and have my doubts about humanity. I believe humans are evil at the core. The boys constantly put emphasis on what adults would do. To me this shows that they are (were) civilized because that's what they were taught and how they were raised, but when left on their own they turn savage.

And not to bring sexism into it, but how do you think the story would have changed if there were boys and girls or all girls?

I know for sure that it was one of the big reading experiences of my life. Fantastic book. I'm kind of cynical too so think that could very well have happened. The voice of reason is often drowned and if it tries to argue gets smashed. In my view civilisation is only a thin layer and Golding is showing us what happen when you take that layer away. If girls had been involved? The situation would probably have developed anyway but not in the same way. But there would have been violence. If the girls would have been alone doesn't matter. There still would have mobs, and some that would have to be the providers (call them hunters) And in any reasonable large group there is always one that in some way are different. That you can pick on. A clocks appearance may vary but the machinery is the same. OK, I'm busted. I dont think much of humanity. Try his The Inheritors. Thats good too.

 

[MadamMack]

I feel that if it would have been all girls then they wouldn't have made it as far as they have. Girls wouldn't understand and know what to do if they were put on a island by themselves. Some girls wouldn't know where to start by collecting the food and building a fire to produce smoke so that someone may see them. girls would have had each other killed the first three days they would be on the island. This is a very good and meaningful book.

I disagree. Girls are a lot stronger than you think. We're not all pitiful. I'm all woman and enjoy the company of a man . . .but I also have bigger balls than most men I've met.

I'd love to be on an island with you . . .in a setting such as Lord of the Flies.

 

[AnnaMarie]

I disagree. Girls are a lot stronger than you think. We're not all pitiful. I'm all woman and enjoy the company of a man . . .but I also have bigger balls than most men I've met.

I'd love to be on an island with you . . .in a setting such as Lord of the Flies.

I think the time period of the story, and where the kids are from needs to be considered. These were kids from a private school, which I assume means wealth. Would the girls at that time and place have been taught survival skills? Beyond how to marry right?

 

[skimom2]

I think the time period of the story, and where the kids are from needs to be considered. These were kids from a private school, which I assume means wealth. Would the girls at that time and place have been taught survival skills? Beyond how to marry right?

Interesting question, and it comes down to how much is real learned skill and how much simply desire to survive. In my opinion, given the parameters you suggest (and boys would be subject to them, too, keep in mind. How much would they have actually learned from a teacher/mentor, and how much just figured out?), there might have been more early hysteria, but desire to live would drive desire to learn. Girls have no less desire to live, and no inhibitor to an ability to figure things out. Most survival skills are pretty self-explanatory and intuitive, with a little thought.

 

[Walter Oobleck]

Maybe it varies by culture. I'm imagining a scene that may or may not have taken place in a kung-fu movie...a diminutive Oriental girl leaping fifteen feet into the air, foot-slapping ten bad guys as she cartwheels about the room. Or say the Israelites...smiting the Amygdaloidites...all those tough Israelite girls armed with Uzis and pleated skirts. Or say the Jet girls and the Shark girls or their grand-daughters.