Well, this is unexpected, but I can dig it!

  • This message board permanently closed on June 30th, 2020 at 4PM EDT and is no longer accepting new members.

Robert Gray

Well-Known Member
There are people who have suggested they'd be okay with that, too. I keep wondering if there are any changes they wouldn't be okay with, and if they'd happily accept a Dark Tower movie that has as much in common with its source material as The Lawnmower Man did with its source material.

Most people don't read. Most of them will not have read the Dark Tower. They will watch whatever horror show Hollywood spews up and assume it is an accurate reflection of the book. It will be their loss, but it will annoy me if I have to talk to them about it. :D I've often thought that Hollywood doesn't really want to buy the rights to the book. What they really want is the rights to the title, names of some of the characters, and Stephen King's name on the poster. They don't give a rat's patootie about anything else. More is the pity.
 

skimom2

Just moseyin' through...
Oct 9, 2013
15,683
92,168
USA
Personally, all things considered, I'd rather there not be a movie at all.

Agreed. It's too big to film satisfactorily. I share the same concerns about the interactions in DoTT and, to some degree, The WasteLand. I couldn't care less about the physical aspect of the character aside from how changing race will affect those relationships/interactions. I've been thinking about whether that dynamic is integral to the text, though. Would the trio of original Gunslingers (Detta/Odetta, Roland, Eddie) be as fascinating without the racial underpinning of their early, uneasy alliance? What conflict would the writers use to push Detta/Odetta to the place she ends up in TWL (trying to avoid spoilers)?How would it change her relationship with Eddie? From a writers POV, it's difficult, because that conflict is so much a part of how Eddie and Odetta/Detta grow as characters... A lot to think about.
 

Takoren

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2015
242
815
46
Most people don't read. Most of them will not have read the Dark Tower. They will watch whatever horror show Hollywood spews up and assume it is an accurate reflection of the book. It will be their loss, but it will annoy me if I have to talk to them about it. :D I've often thought that Hollywood doesn't really want to buy the rights to the book. What they really want is the rights to the title, names of some of the characters, and Stephen King's name on the poster. They don't give a rat's patootie about anything else. More is the pity.
In this case, I'm talking about fans, people who have read the books, including one of the posters on this board, who I will not name, but who has gone on record as saying that he expects changes and knows that the racial stuff probably was never going to be translated to the screen anyway.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GNTLGNT

Takoren

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2015
242
815
46
Agreed. It's too big to film satisfactorily. I share the same concerns about the interactions in DoTT and, to some degree, The WasteLand. I couldn't care less about the physical aspect of the character aside from how changing race will affect those relationships/interactions. I've been thinking about whether that dynamic is integral to the text, though. Would the trio of original Gunslingers (Detta/Odetta, Roland, Eddie) be as fascinating without the racial underpinning of their early, uneasy alliance? What conflict would the writers use to push Detta/Odetta to the place she ends up in TWL (trying to avoid spoilers)?How would it change her relationship with Eddie? From a writers POV, it's difficult, because that conflict is so much a part of how Eddie and Odetta/Detta grow as characters... A lot to think about.
I'm of the mind that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

In this case, changing Roland's race would be a case of "If it ain't broke, fix it until it is." Changing that would mean changing a big part of the plot of TDOTT, and ripples on out from there. But why is that necessary? Short answer; it isn't, as there is no need to change Roland's race.
But what do we know, we've "forgotten the faces of our fathers" apparently.
This makes me bristle with anger. I understand that people who are on board with Elba aren't necessarily just being PC, or trying to prove they're not racist, or being SJW about it, but when they say things like that I think there's no possible way they aren't being PC and SJW about it. It's the same thing as calling us racists, as if that's the only reason we could ever object.

I honestly saw people saying they would boycott the new Spider-Man movie because they cast "another boring white guy." So yeah, now if Roland does end up being white, you know there will be people calling the decision "racist".
 

Robert Gray

Well-Known Member
This makes me bristle with anger. I understand that people who are on board with Elba aren't necessarily just being PC, or trying to prove they're not racist, or being SJW about it, but when they say things like that I think there's no possible way they aren't being PC and SJW about it. It's the same thing as calling us racists, as if that's the only reason we could ever object.

I tend, myself, try not to interpret the motivations of people when they come down on these things one way or the other. Trying to glean their reasons and motivations seems dangerously close to what some of them do when I say that Roland should be portrayed on the screen as he is in the book. Are my reasons racist? No. Are their reasons some sort of way of saying "look at me... how not racist I am?" No. I honestly think some people don't care. I'm willing to take them at their word. That being said, I think the fact that they don't care bothers me more than any other reason. If you claim to love a work, why would you champion taking it apart and recreating it into an entirely different animal? To me that would be like buying "The Starry Night" just so you could put a little arrow and some text on with a magic marker that says "I am here." If that is too cryptic, let me be more plain; don't tell me you love The Dark Tower series at the same time you cheer on how you think they will change it for the big screen. It is a contradiction in terms. In my biased opinion, it makes you look like either a liar (saying you love the books) or an idiot (who doesn't understand the contradiction you are stating).

I'm a biased animal. I admit that up front. I was totally swept away by the The Dark Tower series. The story ate me whole. Changing bits of it for screen adaptations is something I take with a grain of salt. I realize that the transition from text to film unavoidably will change some things because of the different nature of the mediums. That does not, however, excuse changes that are not necessary. Changes which are made due to the hubris of the filmmaker (who thinks they know better than the original writer), or the stupidity of the Hollywood machine (which seems to make good films now and then only in spite of itself), or choices which seem to be discussed merely because they are controversial offend me. There is no reason to change Roland's ethnicity. It would gut many layers of the onion of character interactions within the current story. One man being a great actor is not enough reason. There are lots of good actors. There are lots of good parts. Not all good actors are right for all parts. For example, I can think of a huge number of women who are incredible actors. Why not have Roland be a woman? If it is truly superficial (this issue of race and gender) there is no reason not to consider women for the part too. For that matter, if the color of Roland's skin doesn't matter, neither should his age or his weight. The film adaptation, not beholden to the text, can really do anything it wants. I do hope you get my point.

It is the details that distinguish the great stories from one another. At a basic level, most stories boil down to common elements. It isn't what they have in common that makes them great; it is the specific details, the flavor, the tone, and the voice that delivers them. Changing those distinguishing marks makes it a DIFFERENT story. All the great stories eventually get reinterpreted and sometimes purposely changed around to explore issues. That is natural. It is kind of a compliment to be used for that purpose. However, before you start doing that, the first movie should at least attempt to remain true to the text. It is, after all, attempting to trade in coin off the greatness that brought so many of us so far through the pages.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: GNTLGNT

Takoren

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2015
242
815
46
I tend, myself, try not to interpret the motivations of people when they come down on these things one way or the other. Trying to glean their reasons and motivations seems dangerously close to what some of them do when I say that Roland should be portrayed on the screen as he is in the book. Are my reasons racist? No. Are their reasons some sort of way of saying "look at me... how not racist I am?" No. I honestly think some people don't care. I'm willing to take them at their word.
There's a range of reasons. Some genuinely thing Roland's race is immaterial. Others think Elba's acting talent supersedes concerns over his skin color (and do seem to suggest that I should agree that talent is more important, and if I disagree, that I'm being racist). Others actually do seem afraid that any other stance does make them racist. Still others are 100% SJW's, even suggesting that Roland being black is now the only option. Meanwhile, on "my side", which is to say, the people wishing Roland to stay as close to the character's description from the book as possible, you've got a few people who seem to think that race should never be changed, even in circumstances where it really wouldn't make much of a difference, and sometimes they do veer dangerously close to at least seeming like they're afraid of movies going "too black".

I'm involved in a debate over on IMDB on this topic. There are people with sane minds and good intentions on both sides and there are people whose sanity left the room a long time ago on both sides, as well. There's one guy who responds in agreement with every one of my posts and I'm tempted to tell him "Stop helping me!" because he sounds a little racist, even to me. One of his arguments is that if you change Roland to being black, you have to change all of Gilead to being black, and apparently that's too many black people on screen for him. Well, first of all, no, you don't, you just need to show Gilead to be racially mixed. For that matter, I'm not afraid of a movie that has a lot of black people in it. Why would I be? Why is he?

That being said, I think the fact that they don't care bothers me more than any other reason. If you claim to love a work, why would you champion taking it apart and recreating it into an entirely different animal? To me that would be like buying "The Starry Night" just so you could put a little arrow and some text on with a magic marker that says "I am here." If that is too cryptic, let me be more plain; don't tell me you love The Dark Tower series at the same time you cheer on how you think they will change it for the big screen. It is a contradiction in terms. In my biased opinion, it makes you look like either a liar (saying you love the books) or an idiot (who doesn't understand the contradiction you are stating).

My argument for keeping Roland white stems entirely from, as you say, wanting as few changes from the source material as possible. I know there will be changes, but I want them to be changes on a LOTR level. Some "fans" seem just fine with adaptation in name only. You talk about the ripple effect, how changing Roland to a black man changes Susannah's character, which changes a bunch of other stuff and so on down the line, and their response is "Sure. I knew there would be some changes anyway." One SJW that I encountered over at IMDB literally said "Then you assert that it's important that we discuss racism in this movie but fail to grasp that Kings long winded 700-page novels have to trim fat to make a decent movie. Streamline Detta racist D-plot line to one about breaking thru her mental health problems and falling in love with Eddie. Ok now we're getting somewhere close to a movie, here people. Hate to break it to you but Stephen King character is cut, too."

This guy claims to be a fan of the books.

Also, hear hear to your description that if acting talent trumps everything else, skin color included, literally anything goes. I suggested that in my IMDB posts as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GNTLGNT

Takoren

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2015
242
815
46
Ok, I'll admit my ignorance pertaining to current TV and movies. I've never heard of the guy and don't recognize him.
Idris Elba is a British actor who first rose to prominence in North America thanks to the critically lauded HBO television series The Wire. I own all five seasons of The Wire and I can attest that Elba is a great actor (I had no idea he was British, as his Baltimore accent is just that good). Since then, he's been in quite a few movies, and portrayed the character Heimdall in the recent Thor movies, where he further proved how good an actor he is. His most recent work is Beasts of No Nation, which might actually earn him an Oscar nomination.

Let's put it this way; for pure talent, it's hard to beat Idris Elba.
 

Takoren

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2015
242
815
46
I just want the movie to be close to the books. What really would've worked best is if Clint Eastwood wasnt a million years old now and he could be the gunslinger ...
I'm honestly not sure Clint's a good enough actor. He's a better actor now that he's older but when he was young he said every sentence the same way in that little half-whisper, half-growl he does. It worked because of the types of characters he always played, but I cringe at the thought of him dancing and singing "come-come-comala".
 

Robert Gray

Well-Known Member
I'm honestly not sure Clint's a good enough actor. He's a better actor now that he's older but when he was young he said every sentence the same way in that little half-whisper, half-growl he does. It worked because of the types of characters he always played, but I cringe at the thought of him dancing and singing "come-come-comala".

Well he did sing in Paint Your Wagon. :D
 

WesleyGman

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2013
57
207
34
KY, deep in the country
I'm honestly not sure Clint's a good enough actor. He's a better actor now that he's older but when he was young he said every sentence the same way in that little half-whisper, half-growl he does. It worked because of the types of characters he always played, but I cringe at the thought of him dancing and singing "come-come-comala".
Bite your tongue! I don't know I think Clint could pull it off. Huge bias here though as I'm a big Eastwood fanboy.
 

Takoren

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2015
242
815
46
Bite your tongue! I don't know I think Clint could pull it off. Huge bias here though as I'm a big Eastwood fanboy.
I like Eastwood, but he's like Sean Connery. He can pretty much only play himself. He plays himself very well, but he's always himself.
 

Anduan Pirate Princess

Well-Known Member
Oct 13, 2015
768
5,977
41
Rhode Island
I haven't read through this whole thread yet, so I apologize if this point has already been made, but wouldn't having Roland be black take some of the impact out of Detta's raging against her "white boy, honkey mafa" captors when she is first drawn?

I don't really like the idea of this casting choice, but I could probably get used to it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spideyman

Anduan Pirate Princess

Well-Known Member
Oct 13, 2015
768
5,977
41
Rhode Island
Love Elba as an actor, but as Roland? Not so sure. Detta wouldn't be able to refer to him as a "white honkey-mufu". That would be a shame.
Yar, exactly. Sorry--you even said it on page 1, lol. But yes, agree 100% Her anger is fueled by the fact that she associates Roland and Eddie with the people who arrested her when she was a Freedom Rider, so to make one of them black would be messing with major story foundations. :facepalm_smiley:
 

Takoren

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2015
242
815
46
I haven't read through this whole thread yet, so I apologize if this point has already been made, but wouldn't having Roland be black take some of the impact out of Detta's raging against her "white boy, honkey mafa" captors when she is first drawn?

I don't really like the idea of this casting choice, but I could probably get used to it.
Yeah, it's been discussed. Short version: one side says this is a crucial character trait and critical scenes and shouldn't be lost. The other side says it's a b-story, probably too controversial to be included anyway and should be dumped.

I'll be honest, I'm at a point where I'm so tired of hearing about race in general. Up until the last seven or eight years or so, race relations weren't perfect, but for the most part we were getting along. I had friends and co-workers that were every racial variety under the sun, and we all got along fine and race was hardly if ever mentioned. Suddenly the United States has been declared the most racist country in the world, and you are not allowed to have a problem of any sort with a person of color under any circumstances or you are unquestionably hiding a white hood somewhere in your closet.

I don't know how much I should go into. This is the wrong section to get into it (and I avoid the proper section like the plague) but I've seen this way too often: a popular bit of source material, be it a comic or novel or what have you, is about to get a movie (or an updated movie) and a person of color is about to be cast, or might be cast, or has been cast, in a role that's traditionally white. Fanboys hate it, and scream that it shouldn't be allowed under any circumstances, even if it really isn't that big a deal (such as Nick Fury or Heimdall). The SJW brigade trots out to denounce all the fanboys as a bunch of racists. The cycle has begun.

Normally I'm on the side that doesn't get too worked up. I didn't have a problem with a black Nick Fury, a black Heimdall, a black Perry White, a black Electro, etc. But I didn't write off the people who did as racists, either, because I knew what they really were upset about; any and all changes to the source material. About the only one I had a problem with was the latest Human Torch, and that was because they didn't make his sister black, too. It was clearly a PC "token black" move.

But I do have an issue with this idea that any and all white characters not only can but should be updated to be black. Sure, most of the time it's not a problem, but does that mean it's never an issue? All of a sudden preferring that one character be left as written is the same thing as being racist?

I've made the argument before that some characters cross the line of just being a fictional character and become almost a treasured friend to the reader. The characters in The Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter are like that, and to a great degree The Chronicles of Narnia as well. The characters from The Dark Tower are certainly becoming that, if they aren't already. The role of Roland, of all the characters King created, has to be done right. There can't be compromise. He's not just a character, and I don't want to see a "re-interpretation" or whatever you want to call it, of him. I want to see him. I want the same experience I had when I saw Ian McKellen as Gandalf. It was as if Gandalf had walked right out of the book and into real life. I want that with Roland as well. I don't want an actor that forces the role to be reshaped for him. I want an actor who can reshape himself to fit the role.

But apparently that makes me racist. Or something, I can never tell if they all feel that way about it.

A while back, when it was announced that they were re-casting Spider-Man again, the SJW's took to the internet to let everyone know that this time they needed to make Spider-Man black, and if they didn't, it was racism. These people then announced that they would boycott the movie when it was announced that Tom Holland had been hired. They'd hired another "boring white guy".

So it's now racism if you keep a white character white. I just plain don't get it. Now, you can't change black to white, and this I do get because it's been done in the past, and it was indeed because film producers thought (and might have been right) that white audiences wouldn't see a film with a black lead. I understand the implications of turning a black character white, and I'm also against that. But now, if you don't change white to black, it's racist? Or it's racist to have a problem with it?

Sure, there aren't as many black iconic characters out there. So...go create some! They won't be iconic right away, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try, or that instead of creating more black characters, you instead demand that classically white characters now all have to be black, and that "race is incidental."

Race isn't always incidental. It's not always a "surface issue" or whatever words are used to suggest that it's a trivial concern. I'm sorry, but it's just not. And this attitude that a white character can always be changed to black, and that in fact such a change is automatically a change for the better, is one that I'm distinctly uncomfortable with, not because I'm threatened by the idea of more black characters on screen, but I have a big problem with the idea that being white is the same as being "nothing", having no history or heritage of your own that isn't bad history or heritage (as if there's an ethnicity on this planet without skeletons in its closet).
 

Злыдос

New Member
Jan 12, 2016
1
7
38
hello from cold bloody russia ^^
i hope mr King read forums for some time and i realy hope on it, cos
we beg don't do this, we've been waiting for this film franchise for so long, please do not destroy our dream.

Roland is a tall, thin blue-eyed man...and also...

Idris Elba is the wrong choice for this role. Completely destroys the entire story by doing this. In the Drawing of Three one of the characters is a black woman who has split personalities. The evil half hates white people and the dynamic between them is a HUGE part of the story and team dynamic. Doesn't work if the main character is also black.

if Roland will be black, then give Susannah legs and a gun to Oy, cos... why not ??? and let a crimson king be a pink king with a white sheet on his head.

p.s. sorry for my bad english