I would just like to remind you that pushing the "like" button doesn't always mean just liking something. I have asked for other buttons that are more appropriate for what I'd personally like to express when I push that like button.
Getting the Words Right
- Thread starter Donald Miller
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This message board permanently closed on June 30th, 2020 at 4PM EDT and is no longer accepting new members.
That fits in quite well with what I was getting at. It's very easy for people to misunderstand what you mean and what you're intentions are when you're talking face-to-face. It's even more so when you're online, and using gizmos that further limit what you intend to say.
I really did make that site with the best of intentions. It is free, it has no ads, and no "Donate Here" button. It's been a soul-crushing disappointment. Made even more so by people claiming I have something up my sleeve. I made it clear why I made it. I'm lonesome and would like to have other people to study with. I also have enough free time to have made the thing where people with limited time have everything they need at hand. (It's incredibly frustrating and disheartening that it has been misrepresented as some conspiracy.) I'm NOT going to be discovered. I'm not even certain I would want to be. Just look at what people are saying about Hemingway. And Hemingway was a tough guy. Nevertheless, his brains did end up on the ceiling.
I am sorry you were misunderstood Donald. It just gets hard ascertaining someone's intentions sometimes and you came in guns a'blazing. Let's wipe the slate clean. Stay and play in the regular threads and post personal writing and blog and writing group things in self promotion. We aren't treating you any different than we would any other person who comes here passionate about a personal cause.
I don't know. There's a missed connection somewhere. I don't say that you said that you tried to understand the universe.
I wasn't quoting you at all, sir. Ms. Noir laid out the rules, part of which was posting in Self Promotion. I was making an offhand comment, in response to her post and her post only, about why I didn't do that. It didn't have anything to do with you.
I see. You thought that I was making a snide qualitative comment about your posting. But I assure you, I was not.
Speaking for me, my comment was not directed to you, and no insult was intended. The only comment I made directed to you was in response to the comment that it seemed to you that no one here had read On Writing. My intent was to dispel that notion, and that's all.
Donald, when I made that comment about Stephen not coming here to discover new talent, I promise you that wasn't directed at any one person in particular, (If I promise you something, you know it is so.) it was to reiterate that the MB was never intended for people to use as a platform for their own writing.
And unfortunately, the post I was thinking of when I mentioned that you had from time to time interjected some of your own writing, was the one you made the other day that Ms. Mod had questioned you about.
So, I do apologise to you if you've felt signalled out, it's just that several moderators have during your time here, tried to guide you with what is appropriate on this site... and where to post specific things.
I have no animosity toward you and hope that you will use this site as others do. I'm sorry if your writing group hasn't turned out to be quite what you had hoped, I can see how that would be disappointing.
And unfortunately, the post I was thinking of when I mentioned that you had from time to time interjected some of your own writing, was the one you made the other day that Ms. Mod had questioned you about.
So, I do apologise to you if you've felt signalled out, it's just that several moderators have during your time here, tried to guide you with what is appropriate on this site... and where to post specific things.
I have no animosity toward you and hope that you will use this site as others do. I'm sorry if your writing group hasn't turned out to be quite what you had hoped, I can see how that would be disappointing.
About the writing group: I can't say I didn't try. And it is still right there for anyone who wants to use it. (Which no one apparently does.) "So it goes."
I can understand why Mr. King stopped reading the "On Writing" challenges. I mean, if he's anything like me. I met some very nice folks at a place called Booksie. This was years ago. Nice people, and among my friends, some well-written stories considering the age group-- mostly High School kids. But along with their readable stories, there were many others who wrote stuff that made "It was a dark and stormy night" seem like a great masterpiece.
I'm glad my comment was useful to you. I'm not sure however how I can "study" writing. For me it's always been reading as much as I can and then trying to write my own way. I don't pore over texts and analyze paragraphs, if I do that it feels too much like homework and less like fun and at this point at least I am writing for myself and it has to be fun otherwise I'm not going to keep going. I do pay attention to interesting phrases and specific words and think "I wish I could write like that" but the thing is, I never will. Once I made my peace with that it was liberating.
I'm sorry your writing group isn't going as planned and I'm not sure exactly how such a group would work - everybody posts excerpts and we critique each other's work? Discuss other writers' work? Chat once a week?
I've read Hemingway and hope to read more of his work. I haven't read enough to say he's good or not but it doesn't matter. Some people will like him, some won't. Some like King, some don't. The point is, if you like a particular writer what does it matter that other people don't? YOU like him/her and that's enough.
"On Writing" is one of my favorite books. I've bought it twice and read it just as many times and I'm sure I'll read it again.
About studying, you mentioned "if I do that it feels too much like homework and less like fun".
That's what I had in mind about the study group: that rather than tackling the stuff by yourself (myself), there would be other people investigating the same material. Chatting about it, sharing insights and ideas would make it far more enjoyable. Indeed, it might not even seem like studying, in the formal sense.
For instance, notice what I did on this thread. I didn't plan on it, but it went that way, and I'm glad it did. I liked what Montgomery did with that first paragraph of her book. I tried the idea out for myself. (The idea of using a feature of the landscape to serve as a device for describing a person. In my case I used it to describe the house of detention, to give a sense of what the place might be like.
Once, I had it written, I got thinking: Man, this looks like it could go somewhere as a story. So I wrote "The Confession."
That's what the group would be doing, each person going along at their own pace but sharing ideas and inspiration with others. Like, "How could I structure this story better?" Well, there's a section on there that tells about story structure. Then the other learners would pitch in with their own ideas . . . and viola, no longer work but FUN!
A quote from Sue Grafton:
Sue Grafton says, "To me, it seems disrespectful…that a ‘wannabe’ assumes it’s all so easy s/he can put out a ‘published novel’ without bothering to read, study, or do the research. … Self-publishing is a short cut and I don’t believe in short cuts when it comes to the arts. I compare self-publishing to a student managing to conquer Five Easy Pieces on the piano and then wondering if s/he’s ready to be booked into Carnegie Hall."
A short summary of what Wikipedia says about her:
Grafton finished her first novel when she was twenty-two. She went on the write five more. Only two were published. Yet, she was determined to spend her life as a writer. But writing novels wasn't going to earn her a living, so she turned to writing screenplays. She spent the next fifteen years of her life writing screenplays for television movies.
A quote from Time:
"Her experience as a screenwriter taught her the basics of structuring a story, writing dialogue, and creating action sequences."
A rewording of Wikipedia:
After learning the craft, she returned to writing fiction. That lead to her successful 'alphabet series'.
My observations for the purpose of discussion:
It took her twenty-five years to learn how to write. IMO, it's admirable that she hung in there and paid her dues. Same thing holds true for nearly every other writer. King mentions how he went about learning in his book. It wasn't anything that happened right away. And I have the impression of him as being someone who would continue to be a lifelong writer even if he hadn't gained fame and fortune.
(If there's something wrong with this, I can just mention it to him in a personal discussion area. But it's nearly all just quotes and rewording of Wikipedia. I think it falls into the category of "common knowledge.")
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You haven't answered me privately so I'll post publicly and I will get to it, 'til then: I tried to view the orange-box site this morning, the place where I thought I was a member, I get a 404 error message, not found! I click on the blue-box group, Donald Miller's Journal...click on active members, see that Becki and you are listed I am not listed. I don't know what demons you are wrestling with Donald but I'd like to believe that we were friends until you decided we are not and I do not know why. I made the mistake of not being logged in when I commented on one of your stories, you do know because I told you that I was "Anonymous" who said something about the many cliches clumped together in the one spot of your story, said I was inclined to stop reading at that point, but went ahead with reading to discover if perhaps there was a reason for it. Made another comment when I finished the story. A day or two later I discover my comments in the "Psycho Mail" heading. Heh!
Honestly, I was not and am not...whatever...insulted? I'm still crazy after all these years. I think the point I am making is that your surface layers of skin has become too thin, Donald. Take a step back, pause, and reflect.
It is unfortunate that you have decided that I was an "inactive" member--I am no longer listed as a member--YOU have decided my fate. You do know that I am a self-employed carpenter and I have damn little time to devote to the things I would like to do. You said over and over again that we are not on a schedule, that it is intended to be fun. I appreciate the time and effort you used to make the groups...and can't for the life of me figure out why I am no longer there--at YOUR decision. Has that been the fate, too, of the 13-14 others who were posting and who signed up? I didn't see their names there, either. Please understand that the sites, two of them...still a puzzle to me...are not easy for me. I don't know what I am doing, click here, click there, not logged in, am able to post anyway, this that the other. God is great. Beer is good. And people are crazy.
Ummmm...did I get to it? Oh...ah, I'd asked you why you decided that my comments about the cliches in your story were "psycho mail". You never answered me. You seem so articulate otherwise that your silence is also puzzling. And now I'm not a member of your group because YOU decided that I am not. Thank you for your time and I wish you well.
Best Regards,
Walt
Remember the movie "Strips?" Good movie. Good line from Warren Oates. "Lighten up, Francis."
I thought we had resolved the issue with the "psycho mail." I might have even mentioned it on this very thread, on this very site.
I said a friend of mine made the mistake of posting anonymously.I never stopped considering you a friend, Walt. But I have noticed that you've been on here and haven't said, "Hey." So, I figured you weren't that interested.
Sounds like you're telling me to "Have a good life." You're still my friend, if you want to be. I anticipated that the people in the group would participate in it. The last time someone posted anything was something like a week ago. If people aren't interested, they're not interested.
I said "active" member, Walt. But even Becki hasn't been active, and she let me know what her schedule is, and when she'll be free to work on the projects.
We all have personal demons. I'm no exception. Anyhow, I'm not so thin skinned that I unfriended you or anything. And I know you mentioned you've been very busy with your work. I just figured I'd put you down as active if you decided to become active. I'm not a gambling man, but if I were, I'd bet you that none of those people will show up. And if they want to, they have the link to the site.
Anyway, you going to stay mad at me?
The Psycho Mail was only up for a couple of days--hasn't been there for a week, so that's not a problem. The Group Members situation has been corrected. You are listed.
Remember the movie "Strips?" Good movie. Good line from Warren Oates. "Lighten up, Francis."
I thought we had resolved the issue with the "psycho mail." I might have even mentioned it on this very thread, on this very site.
I never stopped considering you a friend, Walt. But I have noticed that you've been on here and haven't said, "Hey." So, I figured you weren't that interested.
Sounds like you're telling me to "Have a good life." You're still my friend, if you want to be. I anticipated that the people in the group would participate in it. The last time someone posted anything was something like a week ago. If people aren't interested, they're not interested.
I said "active" member, Walt. But even Becki hasn't been active, and she let me know what her schedule is, and when she'll be free to work on the projects.
We all have personal demons. I'm no exception. Anyhow, I'm not so thin skinned that I unfriended you or anything. And I know you mentioned you've been very busy with your work. I just figured I'd put you down as active if you decided to become active. I'm not a gambling man, but if I were, I'd bet you that none of those people will show up. And if they want to, they have the link to the site.
Anyway, you going to stay mad at me?
“do you want me to shoot thee, Ingles?...quieres? it is nothing.”
― Ernest Hemingway, For Whom the Bell Tolls
Okay, so you took a few rounds to the heart...do you want me to shoot thee, Donald? ...quires? it is nothing. No...we're pals. I do like the site and was a tad taken back when I saw I was no longer listed...but then, I've been down that road before believe you me. I have been active there...reading various things as time permits. It is all a bit over-whelming and not knowing how to operate the site...plus two of them...is difficult. I realize I'll get the hang of it, eventually, but now I am leery of devoting too much time there--what's to prevent it from happening again? Don't shoot 'til you see the whites of their eyes.
That's not fair, Walt. You seem to have forgotten the fact that I offered to walk you through it step-by-step. What more can I do than that?
“do you want me to shoot thee, Ingles?...quieres? it is nothing.”
― Ernest Hemingway, For Whom the Bell Tolls
Okay, so you took a few rounds to the heart...do you want me to shoot thee, Donald? ...quires? it is nothing. No...we're pals. I do like the site and was a tad taken back when I saw I was no longer listed...but then, I've been down that road before believe you me. I have been active there...reading various things as time permits. It is all a bit over-whelming and not knowing how to operate the site...plus two of them...is difficult. I realize I'll get the hang of it, eventually, but now I am leery of devoting too much time there--what's to prevent it from happening again? Don't shoot 'til you see the whites of their eyes.
Also, don't forget that all of these things are two-way streets. I've been on here numerous times, and I've noticed you haven't said hi. Yes. Wounded straight through the heart and into the brain. (Always been a bad aim.)
'Tis merely a flesh wound.
We can hold this conversation privately. There is a venue for doing that on here. If I were a moderator, I don't think I'd want to have to be reading our little drama. And what will the neighbors think?
“do you want me to shoot thee, Ingles?...quieres? it is nothing.”
― Ernest Hemingway, For Whom the Bell Tolls
Okay, so you took a few rounds to the heart...do you want me to shoot thee, Donald? ...quires? it is nothing. No...we're pals. I do like the site and was a tad taken back when I saw I was no longer listed...but then, I've been down that road before believe you me. I have been active there...reading various things as time permits. It is all a bit over-whelming and not knowing how to operate the site...plus two of them...is difficult. I realize I'll get the hang of it, eventually, but now I am leery of devoting too much time there--what's to prevent it from happening again? Don't shoot 'til you see the whites of their eyes.
How are things today, Grandpa? It's 8:00a.m. where I live. About time for me to get to sleep. I got into this switched around night for day routine and can't seem to get off of it.