Henry Bowers gay?

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Chuggs

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2012
3,761
6,287
Arkansas
#82
Stories do not always reflect the writer or his/her opinions. Characters in stories are generally reflections of real people in society. If a writer writes a racist character, it in no way means that the writer is a racist. Stories and their characters are creatures all there own, they tell themselves in a lot of ways. The writer is the means.
 

Todash

Free spirit. Curly girl. Cookie eater. Proud SJW.
Aug 19, 2006
8,290
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Kansas City
#85
Yeah, but you're not in US. I would like to hear some Americans about this :)
The thing about the tree at the White House is a myth, a tiresome one at that. Snopes can debunk it for you.

As far as Christmas, frankly, I have never heard anyone who doesn't celebrate Christmas complain about Christmas, act offended by it, etc. I have heard some Christians claim that this is the case (never with any proof that I have seen). They seem to be confusing other groups asking to be recognized with other groups refusing to recognize Christmas/Christians. (Never mind that for many people, Christmas is not remotely a religious holiday anyway.) This is a common reaction to suddenly being asked to treat others fairly, as when a child has a favorite toy for a very long time and is then asked to share. I expect that in time, we will all learn to get along a bit better, much as siblings eventually figure it out.

Here is a handy decision tree that can help us all learn the proper way to respond to the various holiday greetings.
 

Todash

Free spirit. Curly girl. Cookie eater. Proud SJW.
Aug 19, 2006
8,290
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Kansas City
#87
As to the topic at hand, IT is actually one of the SK books I haven't read. (I know, it just has weirdly slipped through the cracks.) I'll pay attention when I read it.

But in general, I would hope that we will always allow for our good guys AND our bad guys to be any color, any gender, any orientation. That's true equality.
 

champ1966

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
4,008
10,834
52
Wakefield Yorkshire England
#88
As you may know, we share the same sexual preference. I also used to feel like you did/are, but at least 15 years ago I realized that King uses his writings as a mirror to reflect on our society. When he wrote those earlier books he was using them to reflect what our society's morals/mindset were. Gay folk were not looked upon very positively or compassionately 'back in the day'. I honestly don't think that King has any type of maliciousness in him that is directed towards gays or lesbians, etc. Maybe he did 'back in the day', and if he did it was because of where/when he grew up but I think, if he ever did, he has become more mature and open minded and worldly in the last 20 years.
My sentiments exactly.

You can't write about the 50's-70's and have characters with new millennium attitudes towards sexuality and race.
 

Cristian M

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2014
184
457
41
Bucharest, Romania
#90
Did ... did you really ... are you essentially advocating segregation? Because ... I just ... my brain. I cannot ... what??
Segregation is worse. DNA needs to be mixed for stronger offspring. I was just saying that humans hate other humans even when they are slightly different, its an instinctive psychological reaction , which can be CHAINED through education (but that beast cannot be KILLED).
Heck, we even hate our own selves from younger age, when we think of the past (that's why lots of sci-fi stories about meeting self in the past mention the automatic desire to kill younger self).
SK teaches us in Cell that the human core is murder, readily visible when all layers of education have been stripped (for example by receiving a subliminal signal on your smartphone).
 
#92
Hrm. This thread went off the rail a bit. Some of these topics really would be better suited to their own thread because they just muddy the water here. If we are doing a close reading of King's It, there is (at least in my opinion) nothing to support Henry Bowers as being homosexual. We get a direct look into the mind of Bowers as well as ample access to his activities. Beyond that, I will only briefly address what I consider a foolish practice, i.e. the discussion of whether or not King portrays various minority communities in a good or a bad light. I've read most of his books several times (many in some cases) and will have them all before I'm done. I have found that treatment of people is individual, not group. His bad guys come from all walks as do his heroes.

For that matter, we don't even know if Hockstetter is a homosexual. The only thing we know for certain about him is he is a sociopath and killer. We know that he does weird and lude things to girls which indicates an interest as well. We know his behavior is predicated on liking things on a schedule and his behavior towards Bowers could simply be an expression of wanting to fit in with a deteriorating Bowers who let Hockstetter into the group. Hockstetter might be a homosexual. He might be a heterosexual. He might be bisexual. The acts, for this sociopath, might have no link to gender preference at all. He is, after all, an entity of schedule, form and function. Do you follow? We get a good look into Hockstetter's head too, far more than is comfortable, and sexuality isn't really anything that drives him.
 

Cristian M

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2014
184
457
41
Bucharest, Romania
#93
Hrm. This thread went off the rail a bit. Some of these topics really would be better suited to their own thread because they just muddy the water here. If we are doing a close reading of King's It, there is (at least in my opinion) nothing to support Henry Bowers as being homosexual. We get a direct look into the mind of Bowers as well as ample access to his activities. Beyond that, I will only briefly address what I consider a foolish practice, i.e. the discussion of whether or not King portrays various minority communities in a good or a bad light. I've read most of his books several times (many in some cases) and will have them all before I'm done. I have found that treatment of people is individual, not group. His bad guys come from all walks as do his heroes.

For that matter, we don't even know if Hockstetter is a homosexual. The only thing we know for certain about him is he is a sociopath and killer. We know that he does weird and lude things to girls which indicates an interest as well. We know his behavior is predicated on liking things on a schedule and his behavior towards Bowers could simply be an expression of wanting to fit in with a deteriorating Bowers who let Hockstetter into the group. Hockstetter might be a homosexual. He might be a heterosexual. He might be bisexual. The acts, for this sociopath, might have no link to gender preference at all. He is, after all, an entity of schedule, form and function. Do you follow? We get a good look into Hockstetter's head too, far more than is comfortable, and sexuality isn't really anything that drives him.
Patrick H. is sexually aroused when he kills. He keeps his animal victims in a fridge until they die.
 
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Todash

Free spirit. Curly girl. Cookie eater. Proud SJW.
Aug 19, 2006
8,290
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Kansas City
#94
We get a good look into Hockstetter's head too, far more than is comfortable, and sexuality isn't really anything that drives him.
This makes me think of a friend of mine. He self-identifies as gay, technically, but if he mentioned being in a relationship or even dating, I'd be absolutely stunned. He is the most asexual person I know.

For some people, real or imagined, gay or straight (or elsewise), sex just isn't a motivator. File that under Takes All Kinds, I guess.
 
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AchtungBaby

Well-Known Member
Dec 5, 2011
3,856
15,490
#96
I remember my impression being that Henry was so profoundly damaged by his childhood that he had no idea whether he was gay or straight--probably would have been safer for all if he were asexual.

As much as I hate to say it, I have been uncomfortable with Mr. King's gay characters in the past. I don't think there is any malice intended, but there are a whole lot of stereotypes rolling around, especially in the early books. I know this came up in the Mr. Mercedes threads, but the pickaninny voice is even worse. Though he's had many heroic black characters, that particular aspect of how he often writes them just makes me cringe.

Cristian is right about one thing: there are a plethora of middle aged, hetero women who write gay porn (they call it slash--same thing). It's pretty unintentionally hilarious (or so I've been told by friends who are in the know) :D
I've noticed the cliche thing as well (the dog-man in The Shining immediately comes to mind). I wonder if it's because King grew up in a time when homosexuality wasn't as public a thing as it is now, therefore there was less understanding/tolerance.
 

Cristian M

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2014
184
457
41
Bucharest, Romania
#97
I've noticed the cliche thing as well (the dog-man in The Shining immediately comes to mind). I wonder if it's because King grew up in a time when homosexuality wasn't as public a thing as it is now, therefore there was less understanding/tolerance.
In US of the 1950s , homosexuality was considered mental illness and in UK some aspects about it were illegal. Turing died because he was forced to take some "antigay" chemical trearment.
 

Cristian M

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2014
184
457
41
Bucharest, Romania
This makes me think of a friend of mine. He self-identifies as gay, technically, but if he mentioned being in a relationship or even dating, I'd be absolutely stunned. He is the most asexual person I know.

For some people, real or imagined, gay or straight (or elsewise), sex just isn't a motivator. File that under Takes All Kinds, I guess.
Is he shy ?
 
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