The horn of Eld (Spoiler Alert)
- Thread starter Jon Prior
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I didn't really care for the end. And here is why:
-the last three books of DT felt like mr. King tried to be done with DT.
I think that after "Wizard and Glass" DT IV, he got jammed, he had painted himself in the corner.
And he says, as i understand it, something about it in DT VII. He talks about ghost in the machine; when you don't, as a author, know how to continue with the story you introduce something/someone to the story that resolves all problems and the story can continue.
And i feel like SK in the story was that ghost.
For me the last three books were like different story by different writer. Yes the characters were the same, and their quest was same, but for me it felt like these last books were written in a hurry and were lacking soul. And Ghost In The Machine was ever present.
About the different writer; it was several years between books IV and V to VII. He had been in serious accident that does leave its marks, so it was in a way a very different man that wrote the remaining books.
But he was back when he wrote 4,5; Keyhole. I loved that book and felt like i got Jake, Eddie, Susannah and Oi back.
-my take on the end, how i understood it;
R had to begin the journey again, from Jerico Hill, to fulfil his destiny. And every time it was Susannah, Eddie, Jake and Oi that would be drawn. Because as long as R continues his quest, the others will not get their happy ending, live together in New York.
-the last three books of DT felt like mr. King tried to be done with DT.
I think that after "Wizard and Glass" DT IV, he got jammed, he had painted himself in the corner.
And he says, as i understand it, something about it in DT VII. He talks about ghost in the machine; when you don't, as a author, know how to continue with the story you introduce something/someone to the story that resolves all problems and the story can continue.
And i feel like SK in the story was that ghost.
For me the last three books were like different story by different writer. Yes the characters were the same, and their quest was same, but for me it felt like these last books were written in a hurry and were lacking soul. And Ghost In The Machine was ever present.
About the different writer; it was several years between books IV and V to VII. He had been in serious accident that does leave its marks, so it was in a way a very different man that wrote the remaining books.
But he was back when he wrote 4,5; Keyhole. I loved that book and felt like i got Jake, Eddie, Susannah and Oi back.
-my take on the end, how i understood it;
R had to begin the journey again, from Jerico Hill, to fulfil his destiny. And every time it was Susannah, Eddie, Jake and Oi that would be drawn. Because as long as R continues his quest, the others will not get their happy ending, live together in New York.
I just finished it. I am thinking and thinking and I think I understand. What is the meaning of the tower? The tower signifies existence; the center of each parallel universe; the pulsing heart of life as it seems. For Roland to reach the tower and mount it to the top would mean existence is to continue (and for the Crimson king to win would mean blackness - end of the white, end of life) and existence (from the micro-atomic level to the grand scale of outer space) is a spiraling pattern. Each circle life takes has a new component thrown into it (horn in this case) and this new component is what gives the spiral its' shape. Otherwise it would be circle on top of circle with repetition but without continuity (think of it mathematically and geometrically!)
So ultimately it is not about Roland or the peace that he finds. Roland's role is to be the savior of existence and he fulfills it every time, each time a little differently.
I would love to read another saga (and another, and another) to experience the different ways and journeys Roland takes to the top and presses life's reset button!
So ultimately it is not about Roland or the peace that he finds. Roland's role is to be the savior of existence and he fulfills it every time, each time a little differently.
I would love to read another saga (and another, and another) to experience the different ways and journeys Roland takes to the top and presses life's reset button!
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Howdy Jon Prior, Lots of good insights and interesting questions there. I also loved the ending. It brought me to mind of Nietzsche's theory of eternal recurrence where the universe repeats itself over and over again until all possible actions, thoughts, decisions, are exhausted. This would almost be infinite but the combinations and permutations would eventually all be covered. That being said, I think he'll eventually have all of the correct pieces and thoughts and triumph completely. All the best, mal.
Yeah, I'm with you. I'm glad he didn't answer all our questions but, rather, gave us more questions. This, like you say, gives power to the reader and lets us decide. I think he succeeded in giving us a phenomenal ending to match that of his brilliant first line of The Gunslinger.
I loved the ending. My son (who is now 30) and I have always believed that life is influenced by the small and not the big things. It did occur to me that Roland should have been sent back to Jericho Hill to start there as he picked up the horn that Cuthbert dropped. That however would mean that he would have to deal with killing his mother (or not if the horn changes everything) and a very different future.
When I read the last book for the first time, my immediate reaction was - here we go again but this time things will be different because he has the horn. I think the horn would change Roland and not those he came into contact with along his "quest".(They would change only in as far as his influence on them was different)
But as to "the Ghost in the Machine" we all know that King's accident was a life altering experience but my thoughts as it played out through the story was that writing it into the quest was King's way of dealing with it but he forced us (as "constant readers") to deal with it as well. To me that was a very public cheat.
I have written a little (nothing big published) and I know that it does seem sometimes like the characters in the book take over the story and the writer feels as if he/she is simply a conduit for their thoughts and actions. Perhaps he could have put "a writer" into the story but not himself. I would have been happier with that.
When I read the last book for the first time, my immediate reaction was - here we go again but this time things will be different because he has the horn. I think the horn would change Roland and not those he came into contact with along his "quest".(They would change only in as far as his influence on them was different)
But as to "the Ghost in the Machine" we all know that King's accident was a life altering experience but my thoughts as it played out through the story was that writing it into the quest was King's way of dealing with it but he forced us (as "constant readers") to deal with it as well. To me that was a very public cheat.
I have written a little (nothing big published) and I know that it does seem sometimes like the characters in the book take over the story and the writer feels as if he/she is simply a conduit for their thoughts and actions. Perhaps he could have put "a writer" into the story but not himself. I would have been happier with that.
My take on the ending is this: Roland needs an artifact of Author Eld to enter the Dark Tower. He, in all his iterations, has used his guns (or gun, actually). But, since this is an artifact of killing, he has to go back and do it again. This last time his has the horn. And the voice says "this is your sigal (sp.? I have the audio books, so I don't know how it is spelled)". This time he is to use the horn to enter the tower. And this time, perhaps, he will find peace.
So like "Violence begets violence" kind of. Maybe with the horn it will lead to a more peaceful journey and then truly complete his quest.
Got me thinking now.
Got me thinking now.
I finished the series not long ago as well and its certainly stayed with me. When I finished it the ending made perfect sense to me I didn't doubt that I understood it for a second but it I suppose thats how everyone is with their own interpretations. My interpretation of it was that Roland being sent back to the beginning of the series was his penance, forced upon him by the dark tower, but penance none the less. On his journey to the dark tower Roland himself admitted to doing alot of bad and assumes that ge was damned for what he had done, but I don't think it was damnation so much as the tower balancing his karma, on his original journey he had done so much bad that only the fact that he saved the tower prevented his damnation, but in order for him to achieve peace like sussanah Eddie and Jake, he had to pay penance by reliving his journey over and over hence the references to de ja vu.
In regards to whether he travelled back in time or not i think he must have because firstly it seems much simpler to send one man back in time than reset the entire universe. And secondly the trip must stay more or less the same through out his many journeys to the tower certain portions of the trip could only be completed once, for instance there is only Blaine and no mode of transport to replace him across the wasteland that he carried the ka yet across. Similarly there is only one black eye and magic door that allows travel between any where and when as in wolves of the calla. So i think this makes sense more so than the matrix style iterations theory. Additionally in the first book he meets the guy who was playing the piano at the bar in mejis if he had it seems unlikely that if he had completed any version of this journey before where he did not travel back in time that this would happen.
And then in terms of the horn i agree not enough significance was assigned to it during the story but what i initially thought and its very simplistic, although the amount of significance assigned to the horn is very low anyway so maybe it fits, is just that something had changed, the way it was written made it clear that the horn being there was a notable difference to the last x number of cycles of rolands journey and i think all of its significance is almost entirely due to the fact that it is a difference from the usual begining of his trip across the desert. I dont think ive explained it very well but if you think of it in terms of being a writer saying that the horn was there this time is a much more eloquent but roughly equivalent way of saying "something was different this time around" while also having the benefits of the horn bearing positive optimistic connotations because its a sigul of the white.
So basically i think the cycle of rolands journey that we've all read represents the penultimate cycle and now that he has the horn he will basically complete the same journey but now having finally balanced his karma for all the bad he committed when he gets to the top of the tower he will find peace, i like to think it will be somehow similar to how sussanah found peace with Eddie and Jake.
Just finished the series last night. I was in love from the first book. But I agree after W&G Mr. King seemed to get lazy and uninspired and did nothing but give us various "deus ex machina" to get himself through the series with minimal mental effort. He should be ashamed to build up a villain as terrifying and evil as the Crimson King which he then literally wipes away with no real challenge whatsoever., that was the only thing worse than the "ending," which I could stomach only because it allows you to create your own story from there. And the sudden exit stage left of Susannah was outright cowardice in my opinion.
I never "read" one word of the DT series actually. I listened to the whole epic on audiobook. I do believe George Mueller had a tremendous impact on the series (as king even states) and when he passed, the heart and soul of the story passed with him. Perhaps my understanding of the series is skewed then, and I have nothing but respect for SK as an author by and large, but I am genuinely disappointed at the end of the journey.
Truth be told I feel like King is to the Dark Tower what George Lucas was to Star Wars. He created a rich and beautifully vibrant world and set of characters, then got overwhelmed, terrified of criticism and dropped the ball. I've never been one for fan fiction preferring to create my own worlds and characters but I do believe if I can find the time; this story, these characters, deserve better.
I never "read" one word of the DT series actually. I listened to the whole epic on audiobook. I do believe George Mueller had a tremendous impact on the series (as king even states) and when he passed, the heart and soul of the story passed with him. Perhaps my understanding of the series is skewed then, and I have nothing but respect for SK as an author by and large, but I am genuinely disappointed at the end of the journey.
Truth be told I feel like King is to the Dark Tower what George Lucas was to Star Wars. He created a rich and beautifully vibrant world and set of characters, then got overwhelmed, terrified of criticism and dropped the ball. I've never been one for fan fiction preferring to create my own worlds and characters but I do believe if I can find the time; this story, these characters, deserve better.
I think it's unfair to ask Mr. King to be the same writer in 2005 as he was in 1975. All artists mature. That is not to say they necessarily get better, but they will necessarily change. I don't see it as lazy or uninspired, just different. And I'm with you in the sense that I enjoyed the first 4 books much more than the last 3. Although Wolves was also very good. Maybe the wait for each new volume adds to the enjoyment, which you did not experience since you did 'em all at once. Which would explain why 6 and 7 are my least favorite, since there was almost no wait for them after 5.
The sense of deus ex machina does poke its head up more often in the later books, doesn't it? I would argue, however, that it's an integral part of the whole series. I don't think I need to elaborate, but I will if you want.
I love audiobooks, too. And Mueller was wonderful. But I really think reading is the best way to experience the Tower journey. And most fiction, actually. One exception, for me, is the Jack Reacher books. They really work best on audio for me, but then there is a lot more description and a lot less imagination required. With King, you need that ability to slow down, reread a passage, or focus on a sentence differently, to really get a good picture in your head.
What if Roland started his quest with no virtues and was a regular piece of ****? Then slowly each revolution he becomes more of a decent human being? Like when he insists they help Calla destroy the wolves if they could. What if the first time around he said, "**** em. Let's move on" ?
Then again Roland has always been the man that straightens crooked pictures in strange hotels. To me that means he is the type of person that keeps order even when no one is looking. When no one has asked him to do so. Just because it's who he is.
Say thank ya.
Then again Roland has always been the man that straightens crooked pictures in strange hotels. To me that means he is the type of person that keeps order even when no one is looking. When no one has asked him to do so. Just because it's who he is.
Say thank ya.
I think you are onto something, and I think it dovetails with what I said. I think each pass around the circle Roland improves a little bit, and slowly getting closer to rest.
Hmmm. The ending infuriated me to begin with. Then it made me think. The more I thought the more I realized that it was perfect. Remember there are many whens. What is significant in this when is not necessarily significant in another when. I don't think it's like Groundhog Day.
Yes, good point. The fact that he ended up with the horn demonstrates that it is not Groundhog Day. Kind of opposite, since he does not really retain what he learned from his last pass around the wheel (at least not consciously).
Unrelated, I really wish they would make Dark Tower as a cable show (like Game of Thrones) rather than a movie. They would 10-12 hours per book rather than 2.
Although I would prefer to keep all the DT books on the page, a cable show as a series makes more sense. That way all the necessary details could be included.
Roland gets the Horn of Eld because that signifies where he restarts his adventure....way before the books start...before he loses it in the flashback....or battle. There is no saving the Tower or learning new things. It is all about the never ending quest....which is the Dark Tower series in a nutshell. Mr. King's claims of not wanting to leave the story unfinished is just smoke and mirrors...the Dark Tower stories will never end , and when they become stagnant he can just start all over again.
