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The horn of Eld (Spoiler Alert)

Discussion in 'The Dark Tower VII: The Dark Tower' started by Jon Prior, Mar 17, 2014.

  1. Moderator

    Moderator Ms. Mod Administrator

    Welcome to the Board!
  2. king family fan

    king family fan Prolific member

  3. Spideyman

    Spideyman Uber Member

  4. kingricefan

    kingricefan All-being, keeper of Space, Time & Dimension.

    Hello, welcome and thanks for sharing your thoughts about the ending. I think it is the only ending Stephen could have given us, therefore it is the perfect ending.

    GNTLGNT The idiot is IN

  6. Iska

    Iska Member

    I took me two weeks to make it through the Dark Tower Series and I love/hated it. I agree the later books weren't quite as rounded as the earlier books. It was the dispatching of the later major villains in such anti-climatic ways that did me in, at the end of The Dark Tower.

    The sighting of the/a gunslinger at the River Crossing was mentioned near the beginning of this thread. I'd like to bring up the giant golden statue of Roland that stood above the building that Eddie and Susannah entered to get to Blaine the Mono in Lud. Because of that I don't think he is put back in the same "when" every time he restarts his quest. Time moves on, and more of the world breaks down every time through his loop. If that is the case he is going to have one heck of a time getting there without Blaine and maybe not going through the poisoned Lud this time around. Right? I think that statue anchors the timeline.

    I don't think Roland will draw the same people again, but he will draw an Eddie, Jake and Odetta/Susannah because they are gunslingers. Maybe he is in a different world this time around and he must defeat all the Men in Black, stop all the Breakers, defeat all the Crimson Kings as well as learn whatever it is Gan wants him to learn, to earn an end to his ultimate journey. Roland, the figurative Rumba of the multiverse.

    GNTLGNT The idiot is IN

    ...welcome Iska!...
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  8. L13 Fanboy

    L13 Fanboy New Member

    I have a terrible memory upon finishing a book, and I'd forgot all about that statue! I definitely think you're on to something there. It would be very interesting to see how much of a hardship the journey would be without Blaine!
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  9. Spideyman

    Spideyman Uber Member

    Iska - hi and welcome.
    kingricefan and GNTLGNT like this.
  10. taylor29

    taylor29 Well-Known Member

    Kind of a nice thought that there might be different versions - just as King suggests when Susannah makes a departure into a different world. The ka-tet remains no matter the world/journey.

    Welcome! ☺
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  11. Fingolfin01

    Fingolfin01 New Member

    Maybe I took too simple of an approach in thinking about the ending which I felt was honest to the story. Isn’t the point of the ending that Roland’s endless cycle comes from the readers? Each time someone finishes or picks up the story Roland is doomed to repeat it starting from the first words of the opening book. A cycle which will continue for as long as people read the dark tower books. Nothing will change - SK didn’t create the loop he is just pointing out what is already known - that Roland is stuck in it as all fictional characters in truth are. If you are wondering if the story will change or if Roland will draw three new people it’s simple - reread the story and you will see draws the same three with every reading and marches to a tower readers will take him to over and over again with no memory of all the times he has made it to the Tower
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  12. Tery

    Tery Dreaming in Middletown Moderator


    Never thought about it like that. Thanks for opening that window...
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    GNTLGNT The idiot is IN

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  14. MadBoJangles

    MadBoJangles Well-Known Member

    My thoughts -

    I always thought that we as readers condemned Roland to the never ending cycle.
    With the way that King warns us, he literally puts us into Roland's shoes.
    You have a choice (much like Roland does), to enter the Tower or not.
    If you stopped at the warning, who knows what Roland does or doesn't do.
    We (have to, of course) read on and in doing so condemn Roland to his fate.

    The brilliance of this is tragically overlooked by many.
  15. taylor29

    taylor29 Well-Known Member

    Fantastic analysis.

    I've been thinking, too, about where Roland is always spit back out - in the blazing sun. As in "there are no new stories under the sun" type of thing, and I think it fits in with your idea. It's new to the reader but the story is as it has always been. Just an interesting train of thought.
  16. taylor29

    taylor29 Well-Known Member

    I think we get so hung up in feeling involved, it's difficult to see this thread. Really, there are so many layers to every aspect of the story. I think King would give a commentary about readers and our human need for endings, even if it means poor Roland stays in a loop (though King also suggests the loop changes, too, as with the possibility of Roland bringing the horn of Eld with him). And it certainly accounts for the mood at the end - the nearing of the tower in a dogged, foreboding (at least to me) fashion.
  17. Matty Hollard

    Matty Hollard New Member

    I totally agree, fantastic ending! One of the best! A true tragedy of Greek proportions. To think that Roland could potentially have lost his Ka-tet over and over is heartbreaking. I cried for an hour! Haha

    My thought: What if, thanks to Roland and his ka-tet the Tower is saved, Gan is saved, great. But perhaps the time loop is Roland's messed up reward for that. He repeats the loop until he can save the Tower and his family. Perhaps Gan's reward is penance as well.

    Also Roland made one of his biggest sacrifices when he let Jake fall, just to get a step closer to the Tower. Something he worries he will repeat through out the series. He is hell bent on gaining the Tower, not just saving it, in fact to begin with the saving of the Tower seems an after thought to Roland.

    But think, if Roland were to cry off the pursuit of the Tower once they saved it the loop would be broken. The Crimson King would be trapped, if Jake never fell they would not need to "draw" him again and Modred would never be. If he were able to save his Tet then he would have the option to live out his days in peace with Jake Eddie and Suze.

    I believe that the theme here is sacrifice and family, Save Jake save the Tower then let it go! Choose family, the thing that slowly warms Roland through out the books.

    Yet I have wondered the same about the time loop and Susannahs fate... There will be water if Gan wills it perhaps haha. Or maybe just maybe when Suze went through her last door she too died in Todash space...

    Her place in Central Park sure seems to me an awful lot like a clearing at the end of the path where all she loved was waiting for her?
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
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    GNTLGNT The idiot is IN

    ...welcome Matty!.....
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  19. Matty Hollard

    Matty Hollard New Member

    Saving the Tower is a healthy good cause, climbing to the top an unhealthy obsession?
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  20. JericoHill

    JericoHill New Member

    Well met.

    In advance, sorry if my English is not 100% up to date. Carry on...

    I have some questions i would like to get answered:
    First: I haven't looked google, myself yet. But if anyone could provide links to the following i would be thankful. I would like links with detailed stories or descriptions.
    Do anyone have links or references to where I can read about the fall of Gilead?
    Links or references about the battle of Jerico Hill.
    Links or references about Stephen Deschain.

    Second: Can someone remember when Roland first discovers this? Is it in Algul Sient or Le Casse Roi Russe?

    Third: Do anyone knows the best forums for Dark tower discussions?

    Everything I will describe in this post, will most likely be posted on several forums. This is more of a "get the books and ending out of the system" exercise, to me. And maybe get answers, to something this forum can't provide.

    Brief introduction
    . I started reading the first book (The Gunslinger) three years ago, on a vacation. I myself liked to describe Roland as badass and hardcore. The thing that got me fully devoted to the story, was when Roland decided to let Jake die.
    This was a man on a mission. It was his destiny (ka), to reach the tower no matter the cost.

    Not much of a reader, I read the second book (The Drawing of the Three) a year later, again on a vacation. And again a year later, on vacation, i started on book three and after that, i spend the next four months reading all the books, including The Wind Through the Keyhole.

    That's how i got through the books, and after the many hours of reading, i finally finished the series today. These characters had been in my mind, for three years.

    I have not yet seen the movie. It's going to happen tonight.

    The ending
    The last three years I can not count how many times Roland reached the dark tower, in my imagination, and what has happened in the tower. When I came upon the ending, and Roland started to walk up the steps of the tower, i was most excited. Roland sees his life from past to present. All of his hardships, would now in some way be instantly rewarded I thought.

    When we learn that Roland is back, where the story started in The Gunslinger, I though that "this is all there is". This is Roldand's story. This is hell on earth.
    After reading that Roland had acquired the Horn of Eld I realized Roland was, and after the book still is, trapped in some kind of purgatory.

    The story without The Horn of the Eld
    From the first book, we learn about Roland's main quest. His one and only mission, is to reach the Dark Tower because the world has moved on. He needs to save the World, by preventing the tower from falling. It is Roland's destiny (ka) that he finds the Tower and prevents it from falling. Now fast forward A LOT.
    After the battle at Algul Sient (Breakers base) lets stop and think about what has been learned and achieved. The Tower (All worlds) are kept alive, by the Beams. The last beam is saved, and is self-healing. Roland knew Walter was dead. There where only two enemies left, who could potentially start the whole "break the beams" wheel again. Mordred and the Crimson King.
    Eddie dies, Jake dies by saving Stephen King, and at some point Roland learns the Crimson King has trapped himself in the tower (Can someone remember when Roland first discovers this? Is it in Algul Sient or Le Casse Roi Russe?). Now Roland, Susanna, Oy and (later) Patrick keeps moving forward towards the tower and here is when Susanna's purgatory ends. The Tower is saved, the world is saved. The last enemy, Mordred, would eventually die when he encounters Roland. Anyway, Susanna chooses love and friendship and is rejoined with Eddie, Jake and eventually Oy. As we know Roland continues towards the tower, BUT.....
    What if he didn't? Let us fast forward til the end of book seven (start of book one) now in mind that Roland has accuired the Horn of the Eld. What would that mean?

    The story with The Horn of the Eld
    My version on how the "Happily ever after, version could be":
    I think the Horn of the Eld is a symbol. In some weird way, it has the most powerful magic attached. What would Roland think about when he looks at the Horn? He is reminded of the old times. Susan, his father, his mom, Cuthbert, Alain, Jamie, Cort, Vannay. Like in the Harry Potter universe love and friendship is the strongest magic. Now fast forward to the end of book one (the new book one version with the horn). Imagine the scene, where Roland is to choose between Jake's life or catching Walter (the man in black). Jake says "There Are Other Worlds Than These" (famous last words) and Roland is about to drop him, BUT.....
    In this Horn of the Eld version, Roland, doesn't drop Jake. He is about to, but looks at the Horn. He is reminded of what should be most important. He had lost so many loved ones throughout the years, now reminded by the horn Roland is choosing differently. He is not in such a hurry to reach the Tower, on the benefit of his loved ones. Not this time, not with the constant reminder of the Horn. Now lets say he takes his time to save Jake. Then reaches Walter, later, but still do. The drawing of Eddie and Susanna also happens (Maybe in the Horn of the Eld version they had not needed be a part of the story, but lets roll with it). Now every action Roland takes is affected by this mentality: Friends first, Tower second.
    Fast "a lot" forward... to the last book, and right before the point where Eddie dies. It was Roland's destiny to lose his group (ka-tet) because he chose the tower first, friends second. Maybe in this new Horn of the Eld version they all could survive, because Roland's destiny (ka) has been changed by Roland himself, by choosing friends first, rather than the tower. And when Roland and the group ends the work of the beakers, the world is safe. The tower has been saved, all is good. Now there is still the Crimson King, who is a potential future threat. Maybe he could gather new breakers some day, so he has to be dealt with. Still in the Horn of the Eld version. Roland and the group eventually learns that the Crimson King has trapped himself, forever (Still, can someone remember when Roland first discovers this?). With the Crimson King out of the picture, the only potential threat is Mordred, but he is no match for Roland. Specially with the full group alive. Mordred eventually dies, by trying to kill his white father (Roland). With Mordred and the, trapped, Crimson King out of the picture, there is no enemy left. The beams are self-healing, the tower will stand. I don't think Stephen Kings dying was crucial for the beams survival. He was just a medium that god (gan) used. Roland just needed Stephen, to write the rest of the story and assist Roland in reaching the tower (especially getting through the empathica part).
    Now..... Like Susanne in the first version (without the Horn of the Eld), just before reaching the tower, she choose love and friendship first, by walking through the door to New York, rejoined by Eddie and Jake.
    Lets say Roland did the same, but different. After learning the world is saved, enemies have been dealt with, and the Tower will stand, Roland thinks of his friends. They are safe. Would he choose to endanger them by pulling them towards the tower, to potentially die? Why? In my mind, the story kind of ended there, when we learned the Crimson King, was trapped. Roland looks at the Horn of the Eld, and realizes that the Tower is not important any more. Would Roland like to see the top of the tower? Of course. As a reader I would. But would I potentially sacrifice my friends and loved ones trying? No. With this in mind, I imagine Roland and the ka-tet would find peace. And who knows, maybe they returned to Calla Bryn Sturgis or other Cities in Mid-world that, in time would bloom again. A new Mejis or even Gilead. Anyway. Fast forward they lived happily ever after, and Roland eventually dies and is met by old friends and loved ones in the clearing. This is how Roland escapes purgatory, and goes to "heaven".

    The Horn of the Eld personal meaning
    I am usually consumed by a lot by work. In periods of my life, work has been the number one priority. There is a task, there is a process. I go from start to finish, and gets the job done.
    When my girlfriend, friends or family reaches out to me (invites me to parties or get-togethers) I often reject them, because of the focus of my goal (Work). Lets say that I some day would reach the end of my version of the tower (end of my life), my life could be reflected to me, as Roland's life was to him. The tower (Work) first, friends and loved ones second. Just as Roland have been given a second chance (or a thousand), then when I would be given a second chance at doing things differently, with a object similar to the Horn of the Eld to remind me what actually matters the most, then what would matter the most?
    Is it the Tower (Work) or friends and loved ones?
    This ending really ****ed me up, and got me started thinking about things like this. I can not express how many times I have neglected firends, family or my girlfriend because of work or other stuff not as important. As Roland might find redemption, by constantly repeating his life, so could I or all of us.

    Walter, Mordred and Crimson Kings deaths.
    Walter's death did not bother me that much. In the start of the seires, I actually though that he would be the ultimate enemy in the end. But he played his cards wrong. The search for the Tower was a dangerous quest, and he died in a horrible way. Very horror.. I liked it.
    Mordred's death seemed logical to me. He was not the most important enemy, but I felt like he was there to create a "watch your back" feeling for the readers, towards Roland. His death was justified i think. He was to weak to do anything else, than charge Roland, Patrick and Oy when he did. Mordred played the last card, he had been dealt, but ended dying. He tried.
    The Crimson King, in my point of view, was defeated when Roland and the group won the battle at Algul Sient and later learned that the Crimson King was trapped in the tower. His death was a bit of anti-climatic, but its cool. Sometimes killing should not be a 20 minutes long "Star Wars lightsaber, fight to the death" with cool effects. Most times killing is simple, and quick. I liked the way Patrick dealt with the Crimson King, but I understand if other readers expected a "lightsaber fight" or somekind of great shootout. Maybe a Mexican standoff, to find out who is the best and quickest. Though i liked the more simple way Stephen King/Roland dealt with the Crimson King.

    As mentioned earlier, I am about to see the movie tonight. I read that it might continue whare book seven left. I will be watching for the Horn.
    There is a lot of bad reviews on the internet about it. But maybe, the movie could make sense to the those who actually read the book.
    It could be a "money harvester" for Stephen King and Columbia Pictures. No hate. There is nothing wrong in making money.

    Wish me luck one the movie... and if you are still reading, i say thankee-sai.

    Long days and pleasant nights.
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